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let me say quite genuinely that you do

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your your questions are some of the best

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um

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they target very important areas and no

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i think you're

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you know from that point of view you're

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one of the best interviewers that i've

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come across so thank you i could talk to

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ian mcgillcrist is a psychiatrist a

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writer and a former oxford scholar

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who came into prominence after the

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publication of his book master and its

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emissary which is a fantastic book by

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the way

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links are in the description this book

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is about the fundamental realities we

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experience that are different

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complementary yet incompatible and

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rooted in the by-hemispheric structures

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of the brain each time i think i can't

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top a podcast

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somehow the guest surprises me and ian

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is no different

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we touch on the problem of the modern

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world with its overemphasis on

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rational mechanistic explanations while

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it simultaneously

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s choose meaning we also talk about

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consciousness

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and how can one be a moral person if

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there are no objective truths are there

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objective truths we also talk about

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schizophrenia and i get

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fairly personal in this interview and

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the reason is that

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i am driven by the screenwriting adage

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which says

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the more general the pain the less

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personal it is and the more

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personal the pain the more general it is

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this means that ultimately people will

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relate more to someone speaking their

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experience earnestly

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and candidly rather than generic

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platitudes

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unfortunately there were connectivity

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issues with zoom as usual

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and some of his points were crushed

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omitted or overly compressed

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there's very little that can be done

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about this because for whatever reason

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the backup recording on ian's end

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stopped if you would like to contribute

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to watching or listening

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to more conversations like this then

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please consider visiting

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patreon.com slash kurt jaymungal every

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dollar helps not only financially but

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motivationally

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thank you so much enjoy

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i've heard about your book i don't

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remember exactly where i heard about

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your book master and it's emissary and i

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believe i even came to watch the film

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version of it maybe one of the first

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screenings of it where you had some

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laptop trouble

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and you were skyping live to us the

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movie was

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was okay but the book the movie doesn't

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sell the book

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the book is a fascinating fascinating

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it's a it's

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it's a frightening book at least i find

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it to be so i find it to be unnerving

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and subversive we can talk about why i

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find it

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to be that later this channel is about

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theories of everything and

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usually that involves talking to

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physicists string theories included and

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so on and so on but

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um the way that i conceptualize the

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theory of everything is

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there's no english word for it there's a

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german word it's called veltan

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that means a framework through which to

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interpret the world

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it's like it's more than a world view a

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world view would be not selling it

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properly and i believe you have a

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i believe you have a veltan xiaong and

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it's

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i don't know how you did it i also i

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also have a gaza

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[Laughter]

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what's that a theory of everything

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okay well this is a great time to give

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the audience

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a quick recapitulation of your main

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yes

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effectively people think

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that they noticed there was a difference

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between the two halves of the brain

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in the late 19th century and then this

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took a step forward in the 1960s and 70s

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with the first split brain operations

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in california

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in which people's brains were surgically

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severed in the middle the connection

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between the two halves of the bearing

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the corpus callosum

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was severed and so it was possible to

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interrogate and to investigate one

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hemisphere at a time

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and a number of theories arose out of

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that and most of them are now considered

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wrong

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but the problem that we have to

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rather different hemispheres doesn't go

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away why

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if the brain gets its power from making

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connections

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should there be an enormous divide right

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down the middle of it

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and this is not just for humans this is

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for all animals to be studied

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they all have an asymmetrical neuronal

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network

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with some kind of division between the

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parts so

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i set about investigating that and

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it occurred to me that what was the

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difference was the need to pay attention

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to the world in two different ways at

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once

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and that's a very important point

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because how we attend to things

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changes what we find not just whether

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we're aware of them

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but the quality of the awareness changes

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what it is that we find there

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and it also changes us who are doing the

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finding

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so attention is a moral act it creates

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different ways they will bring into

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being two different

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versions if you like of reality and

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i then started investigating 20 30 years

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what these differences were and

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effectively they aren't what people used

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to say they used to think it was

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you know as you think of a machine well

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what does it do

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well the left hemisphere does language

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and reason and the right hemisphere does

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pictures and emotion but this is not

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right since all these things

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are looked after by both hemispheres but

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we should have asked a different

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question if we've been thinking in terms

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of a living being instead of a machine

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instead of asking what does it do as

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though it's just a functional utility

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we'd ask in what manner how does it do

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it

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and to what sort of end because things

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evolve

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in in living beings

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in ways that answer to existential needs

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to be

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able to carry on being so and i think

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there is an answer to that that we do

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need in order to

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be able to pay attention to little

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details of things which is mainly things

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that we're going to use like

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food or you know if you're a bird

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picking up a twig to build a nest or

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catching your prey you need a certain

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kind of attention that doesn't really

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need to know the whole picture it just

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needs to know the little tiny bit in the

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middle of the picture which is

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very highly focused on but if it's only

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paying that kind of attention

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it will not survive because it will

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become prey to another creature very

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quickly so it needs to have

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a different attention which is a broad

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open attention

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and a sustained attention now

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that that's a very you know a very brief

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remark but on it hangs just about

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everything

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because because these two ways of

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attending

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bring about two different valtteri they

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bring about two different ways of

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looking at the world

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in one there are things that we can use

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and they're essentially fragmented one

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from another

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we can pick them up they're isolated we

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put them together to make things that we

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want

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and it has no meaning and it's not

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really connected to us but we can

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manipulate it and that's the left

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hemispheres picture

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the left hemisphere enables us to

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manipulate the world

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and in survival terms that's obviously

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very important but it doesn't help us

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understand the world at all

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the right hemisphere mean time which

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doesn't usually have access to speech

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it contributes to language but it for

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most of us doesn't actually speak

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is seeing a completely different world

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one in which things

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are never entirely isolated or atomistic

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they're

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interconnected they are in fact

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everything is connected to everything

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else

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ultimately and it's a a field that is

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changing

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all the time it's not just made up of

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things that sit in the field

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it's the whole field of things that we

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see and perceive

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and we relate to it we don't sort of see

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it as a thing and then relate to it

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it comes into being through our

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relationship with it

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so that built into it is the idea of

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relation

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and so this is a very very different

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world and it sees things as

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special unique that's

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that's a thing we might come back to

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because people might say but surely if

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they're unique then

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what's this about them being all

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interconnected but it seems to me the

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whole

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business is to be able to maintain

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together uniqueness and individuation

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with togetherness without collapsing

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into fragmentation and

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atomism so it sees a world made up of

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unique individuals that that are

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constantly changing it sees all the

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stuff that's implicit

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left hemisphere understands only

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understands the most explicit stuff

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this is the world that we live in every

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day nowadays

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it's nobody picks up the messages and if

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you do they become something quite

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different

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try explaining a joke try explaining a

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poem try explaining a piece of music

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you can't because it is an experience in

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which all the important stuff is

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implicit

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and so of course is the whole realm of

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what we seem to have completely

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abandoned the idea of there being

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a sacred world a a divine element in the

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cosmos

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these things don't make sense to the

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left hemisphere it seems obviously a

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mistake

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but that's because it hasn't seen so

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much of the picture

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anyway i'll leave it there and you can

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ask me some questions

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you mentioned that the right hemisphere

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is involved in understanding

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and understanding your meaning okay what

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well yes a very good question

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there are any word you like the left

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hemisphere has one idea which on the

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right hand is for a different one

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so to the left hemisphere meaning is

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something that is as you might expect

289
00:10:24,949 --> 00:10:22,640
put together

290
00:10:26,230 --> 00:10:24,959
from bits and it could be something we

291
00:10:28,550 --> 00:10:26,240
create by

292
00:10:29,750 --> 00:10:28,560
you know words are tokens they're put

293
00:10:32,790 --> 00:10:29,760
together by

294
00:10:34,949 --> 00:10:32,800
systematic uh syntax and

295
00:10:36,630 --> 00:10:34,959
they turn into a meaning the computer

296
00:10:38,870 --> 00:10:36,640
might be able to find out of the

297
00:10:40,630 --> 00:10:38,880
combination of a dictionary and a book

298
00:10:44,949 --> 00:10:40,640
of grammar rules

299
00:10:47,750 --> 00:10:44,959
but meaning is not that when i say

300
00:10:49,110 --> 00:10:47,760
that there is meaning in certain

301
00:10:51,430 --> 00:10:49,120
experiences

302
00:10:52,870 --> 00:10:51,440
like the you know my my wife means

303
00:10:56,550 --> 00:10:52,880
everything to me

304
00:10:58,790 --> 00:10:56,560
or this piece of music means so much

305
00:11:00,310 --> 00:10:58,800
or you know just being able to walk in

306
00:11:03,269 --> 00:11:00,320
wilderness is so

307
00:11:03,750 --> 00:11:03,279
important and it brings meaning to

308
00:11:06,069 --> 00:11:03,760
things

309
00:11:08,870 --> 00:11:06,079
now what i want to stress is that

310
00:11:12,069 --> 00:11:08,880
nowadays when people

311
00:11:13,670 --> 00:11:12,079
allow that there could be meaning coming

312
00:11:17,030 --> 00:11:13,680
from certain experiences

313
00:11:19,750 --> 00:11:17,040
they see that as an invention

314
00:11:21,590 --> 00:11:19,760
of ours so we do this and we think okay

315
00:11:23,190 --> 00:11:21,600
now we've added some meaning

316
00:11:25,030 --> 00:11:23,200
but that's not the image that's the left

317
00:11:25,590 --> 00:11:25,040
hemisphere image of something that is

318
00:11:27,750 --> 00:11:25,600
added

319
00:11:28,710 --> 00:11:27,760
to something else mechanically what i'm

320
00:11:31,910 --> 00:11:28,720
saying is

321
00:11:33,269 --> 00:11:31,920
we are in certain experiences made to be

322
00:11:36,550 --> 00:11:33,279
more receptive

323
00:11:38,310 --> 00:11:36,560
more aware of something that is there to

324
00:11:40,069 --> 00:11:38,320
be brought into being through the

325
00:11:41,990 --> 00:11:40,079
commerce between

326
00:11:43,509 --> 00:11:42,000
ourselves our own consciousness and

327
00:11:47,110 --> 00:11:43,519
whatever it is that

328
00:11:47,509 --> 00:11:47,120
we're conscious of so it's a relational

329
00:11:49,910 --> 00:11:47,519
thing

330
00:11:52,069 --> 00:11:49,920
absolutely at its core is relation and

331
00:11:54,550 --> 00:11:52,079
at its core it's consciousness

332
00:11:55,509 --> 00:11:54,560
so in this way i found that you're a

333
00:11:59,670 --> 00:11:55,519
physicist

334
00:12:01,350 --> 00:11:59,680
have written to me since the master and

335
00:12:02,870 --> 00:12:01,360
this emissary was published

336
00:12:04,870 --> 00:12:02,880
saying this is very important and

337
00:12:06,629 --> 00:12:04,880
interesting from our point of view

338
00:12:08,069 --> 00:12:06,639
and in the book that i've just finished

339
00:12:10,550 --> 00:12:08,079
and want to publish in the next few

340
00:12:12,470 --> 00:12:10,560
months called the matter with things

341
00:12:13,670 --> 00:12:12,480
i take three ways of looking at the

342
00:12:17,110 --> 00:12:13,680
world one is

343
00:12:21,190 --> 00:12:17,120
neuro science one

344
00:12:23,430 --> 00:12:21,200
is philosophy and the third is physics

345
00:12:25,269 --> 00:12:23,440
and i show that quite coherently by

346
00:12:28,389 --> 00:12:25,279
pursuing each of these powers

347
00:12:29,269 --> 00:12:28,399
we can come to a vision of a picture of

348
00:12:31,590 --> 00:12:29,279
the world

349
00:12:32,310 --> 00:12:31,600
which is very very different from the

350
00:12:34,629 --> 00:12:32,320
one

351
00:12:36,069 --> 00:12:34,639
that we're taught and that which the

352
00:12:38,710 --> 00:12:36,079
popular media

353
00:12:39,829 --> 00:12:38,720
and the the vox pop of sort of

354
00:12:41,350 --> 00:12:39,839
scientists who

355
00:12:44,470 --> 00:12:41,360
do too much talking and not enough

356
00:12:46,790 --> 00:12:44,480
thinking i would suggest

357
00:12:48,310 --> 00:12:46,800
something that impresses me to an

358
00:12:50,069 --> 00:12:48,320
extreme amount about your book

359
00:12:51,509 --> 00:12:50,079
at least though i've only i've only read

360
00:12:54,949 --> 00:12:51,519
the master and it's emissary

361
00:12:57,430 --> 00:12:54,959
in that one it's quite a tome and

362
00:12:58,949 --> 00:12:57,440
you see someone you don't just see them

363
00:13:00,310 --> 00:12:58,959
compile chapters together you see them

364
00:13:03,190 --> 00:13:00,320
work through their life

365
00:13:05,190 --> 00:13:03,200
in these pages and i'm wondering okay

366
00:13:07,750 --> 00:13:05,200
how did you go about doing this because

367
00:13:08,389 --> 00:13:07,760
it seems like to me there's a plethora

368
00:13:10,389 --> 00:13:08,399
of data

369
00:13:11,670 --> 00:13:10,399
at first you have to just accumulate and

370
00:13:14,069 --> 00:13:11,680
dispassionately view

371
00:13:15,509 --> 00:13:14,079
so that you don't bias it beforehand

372
00:13:18,629 --> 00:13:15,519
with your own worldview

373
00:13:19,350 --> 00:13:18,639
and then you had to cohere somehow what

374
00:13:22,949 --> 00:13:19,360
you saw

375
00:13:25,509 --> 00:13:22,959
into a unified message how long

376
00:13:27,430 --> 00:13:25,519
was the researching process and then how

377
00:13:29,030 --> 00:13:27,440
long from once you started

378
00:13:30,470 --> 00:13:29,040
did you find enough of a through line

379
00:13:32,829 --> 00:13:30,480
that you're like i can legitimately

380
00:13:34,870 --> 00:13:32,839
start writing instead of just

381
00:13:36,790 --> 00:13:34,880
researching

382
00:13:37,990 --> 00:13:36,800
yes well it's easy to say about the

383
00:13:41,189 --> 00:13:38,000
gathering of the data

384
00:13:44,550 --> 00:13:41,199
that took about 20 years um

385
00:13:50,550 --> 00:13:48,230
the core of the idea was that i

386
00:13:51,829 --> 00:13:50,560
felt already that there were two kinds

387
00:13:53,670 --> 00:13:51,839
of

388
00:13:56,069 --> 00:13:53,680
ways we could think about the world two

389
00:14:00,069 --> 00:13:56,079
kinds of awareness of it that we

390
00:14:02,230 --> 00:14:00,079
we both we needed both and we use both

391
00:14:03,269 --> 00:14:02,240
and as always it's not either that you

392
00:14:05,750 --> 00:14:03,279
just

393
00:14:06,949 --> 00:14:05,760
collect data and then look at it and

394
00:14:09,990 --> 00:14:06,959
something happens

395
00:14:12,310 --> 00:14:10,000
nor is it that uh you have an idea and

396
00:14:15,750 --> 00:14:12,320
you collect the data just to support it

397
00:14:17,910 --> 00:14:15,760
it's like everything it's a kind of

398
00:14:19,910 --> 00:14:17,920
an encounter a rapprochement coming

399
00:14:20,550 --> 00:14:19,920
together of two things that sense each

400
00:14:23,829 --> 00:14:20,560
other's

401
00:14:26,150 --> 00:14:23,839
existence as to loving people

402
00:14:26,949 --> 00:14:26,160
uh understand come to understand one

403
00:14:29,829 --> 00:14:26,959
another and

404
00:14:31,590 --> 00:14:29,839
as indeed we understand the sacred and

405
00:14:33,110 --> 00:14:31,600
the divine it's a coming together of

406
00:14:34,790 --> 00:14:33,120
something that speaks to us and we speak

407
00:14:36,870 --> 00:14:34,800
to it and if you don't speak to it you

408
00:14:40,550 --> 00:14:36,880
won't hear anything back from it

409
00:14:42,710 --> 00:14:40,560
so you most people

410
00:14:44,069 --> 00:14:42,720
in think that science is made out of

411
00:14:47,910 --> 00:14:44,079
just doing hundreds and

412
00:14:51,030 --> 00:14:47,920
thousands of tests and then following an

413
00:14:52,790 --> 00:14:51,040
entirely logical path but in fact

414
00:14:54,150 --> 00:14:52,800
a lot of great scientists have pointed

415
00:14:56,069 --> 00:14:54,160
out that what happens is you have

416
00:14:58,150 --> 00:14:56,079
intuitions of a shape

417
00:14:59,509 --> 00:14:58,160
of something that is you know you can't

418
00:15:00,790 --> 00:14:59,519
put your finger on it but you know

419
00:15:03,910 --> 00:15:00,800
there's something here

420
00:15:05,670 --> 00:15:03,920
and you start to look at the data and

421
00:15:07,509 --> 00:15:05,680
you find that some of the data fit with

422
00:15:09,110 --> 00:15:07,519
it but some of the data don't

423
00:15:11,110 --> 00:15:09,120
and that's really important and

424
00:15:13,350 --> 00:15:11,120
interesting because then

425
00:15:15,509 --> 00:15:13,360
you say okay i was thinking of it like

426
00:15:16,550 --> 00:15:15,519
this now i see i need to accommodate

427
00:15:19,430 --> 00:15:16,560
this other thing

428
00:15:20,389 --> 00:15:19,440
so for 20 years or 25 years this is what

429
00:15:23,269 --> 00:15:20,399
i did

430
00:15:24,230 --> 00:15:23,279
i saw things and i changed what i

431
00:15:27,750 --> 00:15:24,240
thought

432
00:15:30,949 --> 00:15:27,760
it evolved as all things evolve

433
00:15:32,629 --> 00:15:30,959
the whole cosmos evolves evolution isn't

434
00:15:33,430 --> 00:15:32,639
just something that darwin spotted in

435
00:15:37,269 --> 00:15:33,440
animals

436
00:15:39,189 --> 00:15:37,279
evolution is being being is becoming

437
00:15:41,350 --> 00:15:39,199
and this is a cosmos that is becoming

438
00:15:44,710 --> 00:15:41,360
not one that is just static and being

439
00:15:46,389 --> 00:15:44,720
so that process of creation was like all

440
00:15:48,150 --> 00:15:46,399
processes of creation

441
00:15:50,790 --> 00:15:48,160
the sensing of something that at the

442
00:15:52,949 --> 00:15:50,800
moment you can't put your finger on

443
00:15:54,310 --> 00:15:52,959
like a painter doesn't know exactly

444
00:15:55,350 --> 00:15:54,320
where all the bits in the painting are

445
00:15:57,829 --> 00:15:55,360
going to go

446
00:15:58,629 --> 00:15:57,839
when he or she starts it the poet

447
00:16:02,069 --> 00:15:58,639
doesn't know

448
00:16:03,749 --> 00:16:02,079
exactly but here's certain the shape of

449
00:16:06,310 --> 00:16:03,759
a few lines some images

450
00:16:08,150 --> 00:16:06,320
and then it starts to grow from that so

451
00:16:11,269 --> 00:16:08,160
science is not

452
00:16:14,230 --> 00:16:11,279
different or opposite to

453
00:16:16,310 --> 00:16:14,240
different from or opposite to the

454
00:16:19,350 --> 00:16:16,320
creative arts it is in fact

455
00:16:21,030 --> 00:16:19,360
very similar to the creative arts is

456
00:16:21,430 --> 00:16:21,040
there a reason why god is associated

457
00:16:23,509 --> 00:16:21,440
with

458
00:16:25,269 --> 00:16:23,519
becoming rather than being or rather

459
00:16:29,269 --> 00:16:25,279
than a combination of both becoming and

460
00:16:32,710 --> 00:16:31,990
well there are as many ideas of god as

461
00:16:34,870 --> 00:16:32,720
there are

462
00:16:37,030 --> 00:16:34,880
you know traditions in the world and

463
00:16:41,990 --> 00:16:37,040
probably as many as there are people

464
00:16:46,230 --> 00:16:42,000
so ideas about god can be very different

465
00:16:48,069 --> 00:16:46,240
but i have noted a very interesting

466
00:16:51,509 --> 00:16:48,079
strain

467
00:16:54,790 --> 00:16:51,519
in the mythologies and anthropologies

468
00:16:57,330 --> 00:16:54,800
of peoples around the world from

469
00:16:58,470 --> 00:16:57,340
china and india from um

470
00:17:01,670 --> 00:16:58,480
[Music]

471
00:17:04,470 --> 00:17:01,680
from the circumpolar regions from

472
00:17:05,909 --> 00:17:04,480
the native american peoples and so on

473
00:17:09,510 --> 00:17:05,919
that speak

474
00:17:12,870 --> 00:17:09,520
of a world that is becoming not just

475
00:17:16,549 --> 00:17:12,880
made but is constantly coming into being

476
00:17:19,669 --> 00:17:18,630
you can bring together the idea of a god

477
00:17:22,789 --> 00:17:19,679
that is

478
00:17:24,549 --> 00:17:22,799
being

479
00:17:26,150 --> 00:17:24,559
but if i had to put my money on one or

480
00:17:27,829 --> 00:17:26,160
the other it would be the coming into

481
00:17:29,110 --> 00:17:27,839
being it seems to me that that is

482
00:17:31,190 --> 00:17:29,120
utterly primary

483
00:17:32,789 --> 00:17:31,200
and interestingly people like paulie and

484
00:17:35,669 --> 00:17:32,799
heisenberg and

485
00:17:37,190 --> 00:17:35,679
and uh scherdinger and so forth in the

486
00:17:39,990 --> 00:17:37,200
20th century

487
00:17:41,430 --> 00:17:40,000
thought similarly that becoming was more

488
00:17:43,830 --> 00:17:41,440
important than being

489
00:17:45,669 --> 00:17:43,840
david boehm said that as well and i

490
00:17:47,510 --> 00:17:45,679
think niels bohr

491
00:17:48,789 --> 00:17:47,520
okay this reminds me of another line

492
00:17:50,549 --> 00:17:48,799
from your book and it could be you said

493
00:17:51,830 --> 00:17:50,559
the mind or the brain i don't regret i

494
00:17:52,950 --> 00:17:51,840
don't remember which one

495
00:17:53,909 --> 00:17:52,960
which we can talk about what's the

496
00:17:55,350 --> 00:17:53,919
difference between the mind and the

497
00:17:57,190 --> 00:17:55,360
brain but regardless

498
00:17:59,029 --> 00:17:57,200
you said either the mind or the brain

499
00:17:59,510 --> 00:17:59,039
it's not correct to think of it as the

500
00:18:01,750 --> 00:17:59,520
brain

501
00:18:03,590 --> 00:18:01,760
slash mind is grappling with the world

502
00:18:04,789 --> 00:18:03,600
but instead it's bringing the world

503
00:18:07,190 --> 00:18:04,799
about

504
00:18:08,470 --> 00:18:07,200
okay now to some that conflates the

505
00:18:09,750 --> 00:18:08,480
objective world with the

506
00:18:11,190 --> 00:18:09,760
phenomenological one

507
00:18:13,110 --> 00:18:11,200
so i'm wondering can you explain what

508
00:18:15,110 --> 00:18:13,120
you mean when you say it brings the

509
00:18:17,430 --> 00:18:15,120
world about

510
00:18:19,350 --> 00:18:17,440
well i may not be able to explain it

511
00:18:21,350 --> 00:18:19,360
very well in language because i think

512
00:18:22,630 --> 00:18:21,360
our language is not very well suited to

513
00:18:24,710 --> 00:18:22,640
describing

514
00:18:25,750 --> 00:18:24,720
reality it's very well suited to

515
00:18:28,710 --> 00:18:25,760
describing

516
00:18:29,590 --> 00:18:28,720
everyday things like getting lunch and

517
00:18:31,669 --> 00:18:29,600
uh

518
00:18:33,190 --> 00:18:31,679
building a wall but when it comes to

519
00:18:34,150 --> 00:18:33,200
actually understanding what we're

520
00:18:35,990 --> 00:18:34,160
dealing with

521
00:18:38,549 --> 00:18:36,000
we don't necessarily have the words for

522
00:18:40,789 --> 00:18:38,559
it and you know bohr himself said there

523
00:18:42,870 --> 00:18:40,799
is no way we can talk about

524
00:18:44,710 --> 00:18:42,880
physics eventually except in the

525
00:18:46,070 --> 00:18:44,720
language of poetry and he said the same

526
00:18:49,830 --> 00:18:46,080
thing is true

527
00:18:51,830 --> 00:18:49,840
of um philosophy and and of

528
00:18:55,270 --> 00:18:51,840
the talking about the divine or whatever

529
00:19:02,070 --> 00:18:58,390
yes what i've struggled with very much

530
00:19:05,669 --> 00:19:02,080
is not collapsing into one or other of

531
00:19:08,950 --> 00:19:05,679
two major areas of our age

532
00:19:10,870 --> 00:19:08,960
one is to say quite simply it's all made

533
00:19:11,510 --> 00:19:10,880
up by us so it's like we're sitting in a

534
00:19:13,830 --> 00:19:11,520
little

535
00:19:15,270 --> 00:19:13,840
um cinema inside our heads and sitting

536
00:19:16,870 --> 00:19:15,280
on the sofa little homunculus watching

537
00:19:17,669 --> 00:19:16,880
the scene but we have no contact with

538
00:19:20,150 --> 00:19:17,679
the world of

539
00:19:20,870 --> 00:19:20,160
anything else out there and the other is

540
00:19:22,470 --> 00:19:20,880
that you know

541
00:19:24,310 --> 00:19:22,480
just the world is out there and it's

542
00:19:26,310 --> 00:19:24,320
just a matter of going out measuring it

543
00:19:28,549 --> 00:19:26,320
photographing it and you've got it

544
00:19:30,710 --> 00:19:28,559
so you know in one case you've got very

545
00:19:33,029 --> 00:19:30,720
simplistic materialism and in the other

546
00:19:34,789 --> 00:19:33,039
you've got very simplistic idealism

547
00:19:36,070 --> 00:19:34,799
and i don't think that either of these

548
00:19:38,710 --> 00:19:36,080
positions

549
00:19:40,950 --> 00:19:38,720
uh gets us very far i think the

550
00:19:41,750 --> 00:19:40,960
important thing is to see these bridges

551
00:19:43,590 --> 00:19:41,760
because as i say

552
00:19:45,590 --> 00:19:43,600
everything is actually connected and

553
00:19:49,270 --> 00:19:45,600
it's through the connection

554
00:19:50,870 --> 00:19:49,280
that they come into being so let me

555
00:19:52,470 --> 00:19:50,880
say that again because it's something

556
00:19:53,990 --> 00:19:52,480
that again as a physicist you will

557
00:19:55,430 --> 00:19:54,000
understand you probably know david

558
00:19:58,470 --> 00:19:55,440
merman the physicist

559
00:20:01,909 --> 00:19:58,480
he says relations

560
00:20:03,270 --> 00:20:01,919
are prior to relata now i was delighted

561
00:20:05,350 --> 00:20:03,280
when i heard that

562
00:20:08,070 --> 00:20:05,360
because i have been working on that

563
00:20:09,990 --> 00:20:08,080
basis for most of my adult life

564
00:20:12,549 --> 00:20:10,000
and that sounds nonsense to most people

565
00:20:14,390 --> 00:20:12,559
how can relations exist before there are

566
00:20:16,230 --> 00:20:14,400
things that relate

567
00:20:18,230 --> 00:20:16,240
but actually the things only become what

568
00:20:19,270 --> 00:20:18,240
they are in the process of the

569
00:20:21,590 --> 00:20:19,280
relationship

570
00:20:23,350 --> 00:20:21,600
indeed we only are what we are as human

571
00:20:24,710 --> 00:20:23,360
beings in the process of the many

572
00:20:26,710 --> 00:20:24,720
relationships we have

573
00:20:27,830 --> 00:20:26,720
with other people and with the world at

574
00:20:31,270 --> 00:20:27,840
large

575
00:20:33,190 --> 00:20:31,280
and there's an image in the vedic

576
00:20:34,710 --> 00:20:33,200
tradition which i like very much of

577
00:20:41,830 --> 00:20:34,720
indra's net

578
00:20:45,909 --> 00:20:41,840
net that covers the whole world

579
00:20:48,230 --> 00:20:45,919
and in it at every place where the

580
00:20:50,310 --> 00:20:48,240
threads cross there is a little jewel

581
00:20:52,230 --> 00:20:50,320
and in this jewel it reflected all the

582
00:20:54,630 --> 00:20:52,240
other jewels and the whole of the net

583
00:20:56,470 --> 00:20:54,640
so it's like a hologram in a way but

584
00:20:59,990 --> 00:20:56,480
what is fabulous about it

585
00:21:01,110 --> 00:21:00,000
is that they point out that the threads

586
00:21:03,190 --> 00:21:01,120
the connections

587
00:21:05,350 --> 00:21:03,200
exist before any of the points that make

588
00:21:06,230 --> 00:21:05,360
a net the things that make it a net are

589
00:21:08,470 --> 00:21:06,240
the crossings

590
00:21:09,990 --> 00:21:08,480
that's what we see but they just stand

591
00:21:11,750 --> 00:21:10,000
forward after

592
00:21:13,270 --> 00:21:11,760
interesting uh the relations have done

593
00:21:14,230 --> 00:21:13,280
what they are so i think it's a good

594
00:21:16,070 --> 00:21:14,240
image because

595
00:21:18,549 --> 00:21:16,080
i think we tend to focus on certain

596
00:21:21,350 --> 00:21:18,559
things that stand forward to us

597
00:21:23,110 --> 00:21:21,360
in the world immediately and neglect the

598
00:21:24,630 --> 00:21:23,120
background out of which they emerge and

599
00:21:26,909 --> 00:21:24,640
from which they're never separate

600
00:21:28,470 --> 00:21:26,919
and this is a very basic

601
00:21:29,990 --> 00:21:28,480
neuropsychological

602
00:21:31,590 --> 00:21:30,000
distinction between the left and right

603
00:21:32,950 --> 00:21:31,600
hemisphere which you can demonstrate in

604
00:21:34,870 --> 00:21:32,960
the lab any day

605
00:21:37,190 --> 00:21:34,880
the left hemisphere sees a single thing

606
00:21:38,789 --> 00:21:37,200
of interest that is foregrounded

607
00:21:40,470 --> 00:21:38,799
and it ignores the rest whereas the

608
00:21:43,830 --> 00:21:40,480
right hemisphere sees the whole

609
00:21:44,950 --> 00:21:43,840
scene with whatever it is embedded in it

610
00:21:46,470 --> 00:21:44,960
now this reminds me

611
00:21:48,230 --> 00:21:46,480
of in one of your talks you were talking

612
00:21:48,470 --> 00:21:48,240
about it was an offhand comment you said

613
00:21:50,710 --> 00:21:48,480
that

614
00:21:51,909 --> 00:21:50,720
existence is predicated on resistance

615
00:21:55,430 --> 00:21:51,919
and so what i'm wondering is

616
00:21:59,750 --> 00:21:55,440
is this resistance akin to a relation

617
00:22:01,669 --> 00:21:59,760
yes but it's not the same thing

618
00:22:03,029 --> 00:22:01,679
but without some degree of resistance

619
00:22:06,149 --> 00:22:03,039
without some degree

620
00:22:09,990 --> 00:22:06,159
of opposition

621
00:22:12,710 --> 00:22:10,000
nothing comes into being nothing can do

622
00:22:14,630 --> 00:22:12,720
anything i mean in a very simple way

623
00:22:16,310 --> 00:22:14,640
motion is only made possible because of

624
00:22:18,470 --> 00:22:16,320
friction which is the

625
00:22:19,590 --> 00:22:18,480
thing that itself brings motion to a

626
00:22:21,590 --> 00:22:19,600
standstill

627
00:22:23,590 --> 00:22:21,600
so i mean i know that's a folk sort of

628
00:22:27,270 --> 00:22:23,600
idea but i think it's helpful

629
00:22:29,190 --> 00:22:27,280
that actually what comes into being is

630
00:22:32,070 --> 00:22:29,200
shaped

631
00:22:32,870 --> 00:22:32,080
it's not just formless there are forms

632
00:22:35,990 --> 00:22:32,880
that shape

633
00:22:38,710 --> 00:22:36,000
what comes into being and we our minds

634
00:22:40,390 --> 00:22:38,720
partake of those and of course any form

635
00:22:42,950 --> 00:22:40,400
any shape

636
00:22:43,430 --> 00:22:42,960
is already a denial of something else

637
00:22:47,669 --> 00:22:43,440
because

638
00:22:49,750 --> 00:22:47,679
if it didn't deny or negate anything

639
00:22:50,950 --> 00:22:49,760
it would be just a formless chaos a bag

640
00:22:52,070 --> 00:22:50,960
of nothing

641
00:22:53,270 --> 00:22:52,080
because it would be everything and

642
00:22:54,789 --> 00:22:53,280
everything would be nothing because

643
00:22:56,149 --> 00:22:54,799
there'd be no differentiation of

644
00:22:57,029 --> 00:22:56,159
anything from anything else nothing

645
00:23:00,230 --> 00:22:57,039
would exist

646
00:23:02,870 --> 00:23:00,240
right or everything you have to exclude

647
00:23:03,750 --> 00:23:02,880
you have to you have to exclude you have

648
00:23:06,830 --> 00:23:03,760
to

649
00:23:09,510 --> 00:23:06,840
limit and that is the process of

650
00:23:11,190 --> 00:23:09,520
resistance

651
00:23:12,310 --> 00:23:11,200
and you know there are lots of ways in

652
00:23:13,750 --> 00:23:12,320
which you can think of this but there's

653
00:23:16,149 --> 00:23:13,760
one that i like particularly if you're

654
00:23:19,029 --> 00:23:16,159
going to talk about

655
00:23:19,990 --> 00:23:19,039
consciousness because i believe that our

656
00:23:24,390 --> 00:23:20,000
consciousness

657
00:23:28,950 --> 00:23:24,400
not entirely separate

658
00:23:32,549 --> 00:23:28,960
from other consciousnesses

659
00:23:35,590 --> 00:23:32,559
but for the while it is shaped

660
00:23:36,630 --> 00:23:35,600
uh by whatever form it is that our

661
00:23:40,470 --> 00:23:36,640
consciousness is

662
00:23:43,590 --> 00:23:40,480
instantiated in and william james who

663
00:23:45,430 --> 00:23:43,600
i think is one of the towering

664
00:23:48,390 --> 00:23:45,440
intellects of the last

665
00:23:48,710 --> 00:23:48,400
couple of hundred years said about this

666
00:23:52,230 --> 00:23:48,720
that

667
00:23:54,070 --> 00:23:52,240
it is like the breath passing over his

668
00:23:57,669 --> 00:23:54,080
vocal cords

669
00:23:59,669 --> 00:23:57,679
breath would say nothing

670
00:24:00,950 --> 00:23:59,679
it would mean nothing but because there

671
00:24:04,230 --> 00:24:00,960
are vocal cords that

672
00:24:05,190 --> 00:24:04,240
restrict it it becomes the voice that is

673
00:24:08,070 --> 00:24:05,200
him

674
00:24:08,710 --> 00:24:08,080
so i think you know we can you can allow

675
00:24:10,789 --> 00:24:08,720
that

676
00:24:12,070 --> 00:24:10,799
to germinate in your imagination but i

677
00:24:15,350 --> 00:24:12,080
think the point is

678
00:24:17,510 --> 00:24:15,360
that things are not isolated by

679
00:24:19,029 --> 00:24:17,520
resistance but actually strengthened by

680
00:24:20,310 --> 00:24:19,039
and come into being by resistance let me

681
00:24:23,350 --> 00:24:20,320
just mention another

682
00:24:25,510 --> 00:24:23,360
very interesting small insight

683
00:24:26,549 --> 00:24:25,520
you know there are these uh to get their

684
00:24:29,750 --> 00:24:26,559
golden but these

685
00:24:31,510 --> 00:24:29,760
eco domes in which plants

686
00:24:33,669 --> 00:24:31,520
some of them are very large plants are

687
00:24:36,070 --> 00:24:33,679
grown in a protected environment under

688
00:24:39,269 --> 00:24:36,080
glass biosphere some of them are

689
00:24:41,190 --> 00:24:39,279
biospheres that's it thank you um

690
00:24:43,750 --> 00:24:41,200
and people were puzzled to begin with

691
00:24:45,669 --> 00:24:43,760
that trees in these biospheres

692
00:24:46,950 --> 00:24:45,679
kept falling over before they had any

693
00:24:49,269 --> 00:24:46,960
maturity

694
00:24:49,990 --> 00:24:49,279
and it turned out that trees in order to

695
00:24:52,630 --> 00:24:50,000
grow

696
00:24:53,430 --> 00:24:52,640
properly need wind they need wind to

697
00:24:56,630 --> 00:24:53,440
blow them

698
00:25:00,070 --> 00:24:56,640
and challenge them and they they produce

699
00:25:02,070 --> 00:25:00,080
a core of strength in the wood

700
00:25:03,269 --> 00:25:02,080
and in their roots which enables them to

701
00:25:05,990 --> 00:25:03,279
thrive

702
00:25:07,029 --> 00:25:06,000
there we are it's just another image of

703
00:25:08,789 --> 00:25:07,039
the same thing

704
00:25:10,310 --> 00:25:08,799
let's talk about the title of your book

705
00:25:11,990 --> 00:25:10,320
the master in its emissary which i

706
00:25:12,789 --> 00:25:12,000
believe is derived from the nietzschean

707
00:25:16,870 --> 00:25:12,799
story

708
00:25:19,750 --> 00:25:16,880
contemptuous of the master

709
00:25:20,870 --> 00:25:19,760
now that has me wondering does the left

710
00:25:22,630 --> 00:25:20,880
hemisphere

711
00:25:24,070 --> 00:25:22,640
have some emotional reason that it

712
00:25:26,789 --> 00:25:24,080
thinks that it

713
00:25:28,870 --> 00:25:26,799
is primal or that it has an emotional

714
00:25:30,390 --> 00:25:28,880
reason to usurp the right brain because

715
00:25:31,909 --> 00:25:30,400
people normally associate emotion with

716
00:25:34,630 --> 00:25:31,919
the right and the left is just

717
00:25:37,830 --> 00:25:36,149
well it's interesting because all those

718
00:25:40,870 --> 00:25:37,840
things that people used to say

719
00:25:42,070 --> 00:25:40,880
that they're just you know emotions in

720
00:25:44,789 --> 00:25:42,080
one hemisphere that is

721
00:25:46,230 --> 00:25:44,799
entirely wrong as i say what is

722
00:25:47,669 --> 00:25:46,240
different is the way

723
00:25:49,190 --> 00:25:47,679
so they each have emotions they just

724
00:25:49,830 --> 00:25:49,200
have different ways of relating to the

725
00:25:52,710 --> 00:25:49,840
world

726
00:25:54,549 --> 00:25:52,720
and interestingly the emotion that most

727
00:25:55,990 --> 00:25:54,559
lateralizes is anger

728
00:25:58,870 --> 00:25:56,000
and it lateralizes to the left

729
00:26:02,230 --> 00:25:58,880
hemisphere not to the right

730
00:26:04,310 --> 00:26:02,240
it's tempting um

731
00:26:05,430 --> 00:26:04,320
and not perhaps entirely wrong since

732
00:26:07,909 --> 00:26:05,440
after all

733
00:26:09,430 --> 00:26:07,919
the brain is part of a person to think

734
00:26:11,590 --> 00:26:09,440
of these two hemispheres as having

735
00:26:14,950 --> 00:26:11,600
personalities of a kind

736
00:26:16,390 --> 00:26:14,960
um i mean of course one immediately

737
00:26:18,430 --> 00:26:16,400
invites the

738
00:26:20,070 --> 00:26:18,440
past that you know everyone's

739
00:26:22,070 --> 00:26:20,080
anthropomorphizing a

740
00:26:25,669 --> 00:26:22,080
a computer or something but of course

741
00:26:27,590 --> 00:26:25,679
one's easy easily sort of

742
00:26:28,789 --> 00:26:27,600
skewing the picture by thinking of the

743
00:26:30,310 --> 00:26:28,799
brain as a computer because it's

744
00:26:30,950 --> 00:26:30,320
obviously part of a living person as

745
00:26:34,870 --> 00:26:30,960
well

746
00:26:38,710 --> 00:26:34,880
anyway um to cut a long story short yes

747
00:26:41,029 --> 00:26:38,720
uh when when you isolate one hemisphere

748
00:26:43,510 --> 00:26:41,039
at a time

749
00:26:45,190 --> 00:26:43,520
the left hemisphere is more confident

750
00:26:47,110 --> 00:26:45,200
even when it's entirely wrong

751
00:26:49,029 --> 00:26:47,120
and tends to increase its sense of

752
00:26:51,830 --> 00:26:49,039
conviction when it's presented with data

753
00:26:53,590 --> 00:26:51,840
that suggests that it might be wrong

754
00:26:58,630 --> 00:26:53,600
whereas the right hemisphere

755
00:27:00,549 --> 00:26:58,640
tends to be more um more open to

756
00:27:02,310 --> 00:27:00,559
well it might be something different

757
00:27:05,909 --> 00:27:02,320
actually ramachandran you know

758
00:27:07,110 --> 00:27:05,919
very well known neuroscientist says um

759
00:27:10,390 --> 00:27:07,120
that

760
00:27:11,269 --> 00:27:10,400
he calls it the the um the devil's

761
00:27:12,710 --> 00:27:11,279
advocate

762
00:27:13,990 --> 00:27:12,720
the right hemisphere because well the

763
00:27:15,830 --> 00:27:14,000
left hemisphere is jumping to

764
00:27:17,750 --> 00:27:15,840
conclusions which it does

765
00:27:19,590 --> 00:27:17,760
very quickly the right hemisphere is

766
00:27:20,549 --> 00:27:19,600
going yes but on the one hand and on the

767
00:27:24,549 --> 00:27:20,559
other

768
00:27:27,590 --> 00:27:24,559
miss very much in today's

769
00:27:28,230 --> 00:27:27,600
culture is that the ability to nuance

770
00:27:30,310 --> 00:27:28,240
physician

771
00:27:31,350 --> 00:27:30,320
opinions and see this good and bad in

772
00:27:32,789 --> 00:27:31,360
many things

773
00:27:34,310 --> 00:27:32,799
that more and more of something you

774
00:27:35,669 --> 00:27:34,320
think is good is not necessarily good

775
00:27:39,350 --> 00:27:35,679
and so forth

776
00:27:44,149 --> 00:27:40,950
it's also true that the left hemisphere

777
00:27:46,230 --> 00:27:44,159
sees less i mean it literally sees less

778
00:27:48,789 --> 00:27:46,240
uh in the sense of it attends to less

779
00:27:52,070 --> 00:27:48,799
and therefore takes in less of the world

780
00:27:54,230 --> 00:27:52,080
and when you see or or understand less

781
00:27:56,230 --> 00:27:54,240
you think you know it all right there's

782
00:27:58,070 --> 00:27:56,240
uh a phenomenon in

783
00:28:00,310 --> 00:27:58,080
psychology called the dunning-kruger

784
00:28:01,430 --> 00:28:00,320
effect which basically is that when

785
00:28:03,350 --> 00:28:01,440
people are very bright

786
00:28:04,870 --> 00:28:03,360
they think they don't know very much but

787
00:28:05,909 --> 00:28:04,880
when they're stupid they think they know

788
00:28:08,149 --> 00:28:05,919
everything

789
00:28:11,750 --> 00:28:08,159
and so it's the people who are at least

790
00:28:15,350 --> 00:28:11,760
intelligent who are most dogmatic

791
00:28:16,789 --> 00:28:15,360
about their views and i think that

792
00:28:19,510 --> 00:28:16,799
you could say that the left hemisphere

793
00:28:22,630 --> 00:28:19,520
suffers from not really understanding

794
00:28:25,190 --> 00:28:22,640
jumping to conclusions and tending to be

795
00:28:28,950 --> 00:28:25,200
rather impatient and angry

796
00:28:30,630 --> 00:28:28,960
um so yes i think you could you could

797
00:28:33,750 --> 00:28:30,640
say that about them and what

798
00:28:34,710 --> 00:28:33,760
what i've been amazed by is in how many

799
00:28:37,669 --> 00:28:34,720
cultures

800
00:28:38,630 --> 00:28:37,679
there is a story like the master in his

801
00:28:41,830 --> 00:28:38,640
emissary

802
00:28:44,389 --> 00:28:41,840
of two brothers or

803
00:28:45,269 --> 00:28:44,399
an emperor and his general or whatever

804
00:28:47,590 --> 00:28:45,279
it is

805
00:28:48,789 --> 00:28:47,600
these two powers and one of them is

806
00:28:51,510 --> 00:28:48,799
clearly

807
00:28:52,230 --> 00:28:51,520
sort of superintendent of the other but

808
00:28:56,389 --> 00:28:52,240
the

809
00:28:57,669 --> 00:28:56,399
master

810
00:29:00,149 --> 00:28:57,679
even though it doesn't really understand

811
00:29:02,070 --> 00:29:00,159
what it's doing and it

812
00:29:03,190 --> 00:29:02,080
tries to resist and even to try to

813
00:29:05,830 --> 00:29:03,200
destroy

814
00:29:07,029 --> 00:29:05,840
that force now that that story exists in

815
00:29:10,230 --> 00:29:07,039
iroquois

816
00:29:12,710 --> 00:29:10,240
legends it exists in chinese

817
00:29:13,430 --> 00:29:12,720
8th century literature you know it's

818
00:29:17,669 --> 00:29:13,440
it's there

819
00:29:19,909 --> 00:29:17,679
inward mythology

820
00:29:22,070 --> 00:29:19,919
what is this that we're seeing i think

821
00:29:25,269 --> 00:29:22,080
it is an understanding

822
00:29:28,870 --> 00:29:25,279
that there is a part of us that is

823
00:29:31,990 --> 00:29:28,880
somehow unwilling to accept um

824
00:29:33,830 --> 00:29:32,000
that it knows very little

825
00:29:35,909 --> 00:29:33,840
and if only more people einstein

826
00:29:36,870 --> 00:29:35,919
actually said in the letter to the queen

827
00:29:40,230 --> 00:29:36,880
of belgium

828
00:29:42,710 --> 00:29:40,240
he said if more people understood how

829
00:29:46,870 --> 00:29:42,720
very little we know the world would be a

830
00:29:50,230 --> 00:29:48,870
speaking of stories i'm reminded of one

831
00:29:51,590 --> 00:29:50,240
by hildegard the bingham

832
00:29:53,350 --> 00:29:51,600
it's one of my favorite quotes i'm not

833
00:29:54,470 --> 00:29:53,360
sure if you're aware of it but it goes

834
00:29:56,950 --> 00:29:54,480
something like this

835
00:29:57,510 --> 00:29:56,960
and pride germinated in the first angel

836
00:29:59,110 --> 00:29:57,520
as he

837
00:30:01,830 --> 00:29:59,120
could no longer comprehend the source of

838
00:30:03,510 --> 00:30:01,840
his own light and so he spoke to himself

839
00:30:05,190 --> 00:30:03,520
i want to be master and want none above

840
00:30:07,350 --> 00:30:05,200
me and that one is powerful

841
00:30:08,630 --> 00:30:07,360
i think about that often because in one

842
00:30:10,870 --> 00:30:08,640
so the first angel satan

843
00:30:12,149 --> 00:30:10,880
and then two through his own radiance he

844
00:30:13,909 --> 00:30:12,159
couldn't comprehend the source of his

845
00:30:17,350 --> 00:30:13,919
own light and then three

846
00:30:18,549 --> 00:30:17,360
and so he spoke to himself and so he

847
00:30:20,789 --> 00:30:18,559
spoke to himself

848
00:30:22,870 --> 00:30:20,799
and that to me is there's something

849
00:30:24,549 --> 00:30:22,880
about being overly self-conscious and

850
00:30:26,710 --> 00:30:24,559
and just simply speaking to yourself and

851
00:30:29,029 --> 00:30:26,720
not talking to others

852
00:30:30,389 --> 00:30:29,039
that breeds well it it reinforces

853
00:30:31,909 --> 00:30:30,399
arrogance but it also wants you

854
00:30:34,830 --> 00:30:31,919
there's something there's something evil

855
00:30:37,909 --> 00:30:37,510
yes i'm interested that you use that

856
00:30:39,669 --> 00:30:37,919
word

857
00:30:41,110 --> 00:30:39,679
most people these days are frightened of

858
00:30:42,549 --> 00:30:41,120
using it

859
00:30:45,669 --> 00:30:42,559
having spent a long time as a

860
00:30:50,149 --> 00:30:45,679
psychiatrist i've certainly seen

861
00:30:51,110 --> 00:30:50,159
sickness and i've seen unhappiness but i

862
00:30:54,710 --> 00:30:51,120
have also

863
00:30:58,230 --> 00:30:54,720
at times seen evil

864
00:31:00,389 --> 00:30:58,240
something that is not fueled by any need

865
00:31:01,750 --> 00:31:00,399
or anything except the desire to destroy

866
00:31:04,870 --> 00:31:01,760
and to hurt

867
00:31:06,149 --> 00:31:04,880
and i think that does exist in all

868
00:31:08,230 --> 00:31:06,159
cultures people

869
00:31:10,789 --> 00:31:08,240
have thought that he did and that it's

870
00:31:14,149 --> 00:31:10,799
probably not just confined to us

871
00:31:15,590 --> 00:31:14,159
so i mean the absolute locus classicus

872
00:31:18,630 --> 00:31:15,600
in the west is

873
00:31:20,389 --> 00:31:18,640
milton's paradise lost which is whose

874
00:31:22,070 --> 00:31:20,399
theme is entirely this

875
00:31:24,470 --> 00:31:22,080
because of course it was lucifer the

876
00:31:26,950 --> 00:31:24,480
lightbringer as the name means

877
00:31:28,230 --> 00:31:26,960
who became the chief of the of the

878
00:31:31,110 --> 00:31:28,240
devils

879
00:31:33,029 --> 00:31:31,120
and in that sense he was exactly like

880
00:31:34,630 --> 00:31:33,039
the emissary to the master because in

881
00:31:36,389 --> 00:31:34,640
the story of that

882
00:31:38,070 --> 00:31:36,399
the reason the master points the

883
00:31:41,110 --> 00:31:38,080
emissary is that he's

884
00:31:42,710 --> 00:31:41,120
such a good emissary the trouble is he's

885
00:31:46,070 --> 00:31:42,720
not a very good master

886
00:31:47,110 --> 00:31:46,080
and this this unequal dynamic is very

887
00:31:48,630 --> 00:31:47,120
important and i think it's very

888
00:31:49,590 --> 00:31:48,640
difficult people to understand these

889
00:31:52,470 --> 00:31:49,600
days

890
00:31:54,070 --> 00:31:52,480
because we'd like to think in a rather

891
00:31:55,350 --> 00:31:54,080
left hemisphere way that things should

892
00:31:57,029 --> 00:31:55,360
be just symmetrical

893
00:32:00,149 --> 00:31:57,039
that if there's a and b they should be

894
00:32:01,669 --> 00:32:00,159
just symmetrical but they may not be one

895
00:32:02,870 --> 00:32:01,679
of them may be much more important and

896
00:32:06,149 --> 00:32:02,880
creative than the other

897
00:32:07,029 --> 00:32:06,159
so i think these drives if you like that

898
00:32:10,950 --> 00:32:07,039
are in things

899
00:32:12,870 --> 00:32:10,960
are are different not necessarily easily

900
00:32:14,549 --> 00:32:12,880
reconciled

901
00:32:16,310 --> 00:32:14,559
um and this has nothing to do with a

902
00:32:16,870 --> 00:32:16,320
particularly religious point of view i

903
00:32:19,830 --> 00:32:16,880
i'm

904
00:32:21,669 --> 00:32:19,840
sorry to say that i don't really i mean

905
00:32:22,470 --> 00:32:21,679
i certainly honor religions and

906
00:32:24,710 --> 00:32:22,480
spiritual

907
00:32:26,470 --> 00:32:24,720
traditions but i i don't myself feel

908
00:32:29,350 --> 00:32:26,480
that i have any

909
00:32:30,230 --> 00:32:29,360
particular connection to to the divine

910
00:32:32,710 --> 00:32:30,240
but i do

911
00:32:33,990 --> 00:32:32,720
i would hate to lose the sense that

912
00:32:35,669 --> 00:32:34,000
there is something

913
00:32:38,230 --> 00:32:35,679
beyond the material that is very

914
00:32:41,350 --> 00:32:38,240
important and powerful and beautiful

915
00:32:43,110 --> 00:32:41,360
in this world

916
00:32:45,269 --> 00:32:43,120
part of why your book is so fascinating

917
00:32:46,710 --> 00:32:45,279
is there are sentences

918
00:32:49,190 --> 00:32:46,720
embedded within paragraphs which are

919
00:32:51,430 --> 00:32:49,200
already far-reaching implications

920
00:32:52,389 --> 00:32:51,440
so there's a set of three sentences i

921
00:32:54,149 --> 00:32:52,399
don't recall where

922
00:32:55,509 --> 00:32:54,159
somewhere chapter seven chapter eight i

923
00:32:55,990 --> 00:32:55,519
wish i had written them down but i just

924
00:32:57,669 --> 00:32:56,000
wrote down

925
00:32:59,110 --> 00:32:57,679
a note what you've done in these three

926
00:33:01,909 --> 00:32:59,120
sentences is connect

927
00:33:03,750 --> 00:33:01,919
nihilism borderism sorry boredom the

928
00:33:05,509 --> 00:33:03,760
platonic realm of timelessness

929
00:33:07,269 --> 00:33:05,519
and then to me that also connects

930
00:33:08,549 --> 00:33:07,279
eastern mysticism and then the idea of

931
00:33:09,909 --> 00:33:08,559
the present moment

932
00:33:11,669 --> 00:33:09,919
as for the exact connection the

933
00:33:12,870 --> 00:33:11,679
relations between those i'm still

934
00:33:15,269 --> 00:33:12,880
cogitating i'm still trying to

935
00:33:17,990 --> 00:33:15,279
understand but you said that

936
00:33:19,430 --> 00:33:18,000
in an almost an offhand with an offhand

937
00:33:20,870 --> 00:33:19,440
remark and i was wondering i don't know

938
00:33:24,789 --> 00:33:20,880
if you realize the profundity

939
00:33:27,430 --> 00:33:24,799
of those statements

940
00:33:28,950 --> 00:33:27,440
i don't remember actually the words but

941
00:33:30,630 --> 00:33:28,960
i could have said something like that

942
00:33:33,430 --> 00:33:30,640
definitely

943
00:33:35,669 --> 00:33:33,440
i i know i say which i think believe is

944
00:33:36,470 --> 00:33:35,679
correct that the concept of boredom and

945
00:33:39,430 --> 00:33:36,480
the word for

946
00:33:41,029 --> 00:33:39,440
boredom arose in the 18th century when

947
00:33:43,110 --> 00:33:41,039
we first began to

948
00:33:44,870 --> 00:33:43,120
feel that we really had control of

949
00:33:48,149 --> 00:33:44,880
everything and that the whole

950
00:33:51,190 --> 00:33:48,159
of life and the world around us was

951
00:33:53,029 --> 00:33:51,200
under human uh control we could have it

952
00:33:55,269 --> 00:33:53,039
the way we wanted it

953
00:33:57,430 --> 00:33:55,279
and it was then that people started to

954
00:34:00,470 --> 00:33:57,440
feel the sense of emptiness of

955
00:34:03,990 --> 00:34:00,480
as you say the beginnings of nihilism

956
00:34:06,630 --> 00:34:04,000
um and so on so i do think it's very

957
00:34:08,310 --> 00:34:06,640
interesting and in in the book that i

958
00:34:10,069 --> 00:34:08,320
i've said an awful lot more about all

959
00:34:11,510 --> 00:34:10,079
this in the in the book i'm

960
00:34:13,829 --> 00:34:11,520
i've just written called the matter with

961
00:34:16,310 --> 00:34:13,839
things um

962
00:34:17,030 --> 00:34:16,320
and the last part of the book i look at

963
00:34:21,109 --> 00:34:17,040
the

964
00:34:22,149 --> 00:34:21,119
daring thing or perhaps a stupid thing

965
00:34:25,270 --> 00:34:22,159
for somebody

966
00:34:27,589 --> 00:34:25,280
to do unless they they think they

967
00:34:29,030 --> 00:34:27,599
they somehow have an insight into into

968
00:34:32,790 --> 00:34:29,040
physics which i i

969
00:34:35,430 --> 00:34:32,800
i i rely very much on colleagues and on

970
00:34:38,230 --> 00:34:35,440
guidance from physicists but to talk

971
00:34:39,990 --> 00:34:38,240
about time and space

972
00:34:41,990 --> 00:34:40,000
and i think these things are very very

973
00:34:42,950 --> 00:34:42,000
important and one of the things that

974
00:34:46,470 --> 00:34:42,960
people

975
00:34:48,790 --> 00:34:46,480
believe in the real world a lot of

976
00:34:52,310 --> 00:34:48,800
people who have a spiritual take think

977
00:34:53,990 --> 00:34:52,320
really time is an illusion really time

978
00:34:57,510 --> 00:34:54,000
is just a mistake

979
00:35:00,630 --> 00:34:57,520
it doesn't really exist but

980
00:35:03,750 --> 00:35:00,640
i with lee smolin who i

981
00:35:07,030 --> 00:35:03,760
very much admire um who's

982
00:35:09,910 --> 00:35:07,040
gonna be interviewing lee oh

983
00:35:11,349 --> 00:35:09,920
well for what he's worth i i'm an

984
00:35:13,990 --> 00:35:11,359
acolyte i think he's

985
00:35:16,069 --> 00:35:14,000
he's very very interesting and i quote

986
00:35:19,829 --> 00:35:16,079
him a lot in in my new book

987
00:35:21,670 --> 00:35:19,839
but with him i think i'm right in saying

988
00:35:23,910 --> 00:35:21,680
i consider that you know time is

989
00:35:27,109 --> 00:35:23,920
absolutely

990
00:35:30,550 --> 00:35:27,119
primary ontologically speaking

991
00:35:34,550 --> 00:35:30,560
and there is a saying of dogen

992
00:35:37,990 --> 00:35:34,560
chinese sage that even god cannot

993
00:35:42,150 --> 00:35:40,150
now you can i mean that would be a

994
00:35:44,230 --> 00:35:42,160
fascinating conversation all on its own

995
00:35:45,270 --> 00:35:44,240
but there is such a thing as time moving

996
00:35:49,270 --> 00:35:45,280
and developing

997
00:35:51,190 --> 00:35:49,280
and at the same time not running away

998
00:35:52,630 --> 00:35:51,200
an image i quite like is the idea of

999
00:35:54,390 --> 00:35:52,640
being in a stream

1000
00:35:55,910 --> 00:35:54,400
and if you move with the stream you

1001
00:35:57,910 --> 00:35:55,920
don't stop the stream moving

1002
00:35:59,829 --> 00:35:57,920
but as far as you are concerned the

1003
00:36:01,990 --> 00:35:59,839
world is permanently there with you

1004
00:36:04,470 --> 00:36:02,000
because you are moving with that stream

1005
00:36:06,069 --> 00:36:04,480
it's only if you're standing on the bank

1006
00:36:08,470 --> 00:36:06,079
impatiently with a clipboard and a

1007
00:36:11,750 --> 00:36:08,480
stopwatch watching things pass

1008
00:36:13,910 --> 00:36:11,760
and from outside that time appears to

1009
00:36:16,230 --> 00:36:13,920
have this erosive quality

1010
00:36:17,349 --> 00:36:16,240
um instead it's part of the experience

1011
00:36:19,190 --> 00:36:17,359
of becoming

1012
00:36:22,230 --> 00:36:19,200
which is what it is to be a human

1013
00:36:26,870 --> 00:36:25,430
speaking of streams and time

1014
00:36:28,710 --> 00:36:26,880
is river this is mentioned quite a bit

1015
00:36:32,230 --> 00:36:28,720
in your book and i have a

1016
00:36:35,510 --> 00:36:33,510
it's okay i'm just going to read it

1017
00:36:36,069 --> 00:36:35,520
because i don't have it in my working

1018
00:36:38,390 --> 00:36:36,079
memory

1019
00:36:39,910 --> 00:36:38,400
so the right brain is the type that when

1020
00:36:41,109 --> 00:36:39,920
i say right brain i mean hemisphere so

1021
00:36:42,150 --> 00:36:41,119
the right hemisphere is the type that

1022
00:36:43,990 --> 00:36:42,160
would come up with the statement that

1023
00:36:45,910 --> 00:36:44,000
there's unceasing change

1024
00:36:47,109 --> 00:36:45,920
it's constantly constantly changing and

1025
00:36:48,470 --> 00:36:47,119
then the left is the one that needs to

1026
00:36:50,790 --> 00:36:48,480
stand back and abstract

1027
00:36:52,310 --> 00:36:50,800
and see some constancy and then it made

1028
00:36:53,990 --> 00:36:52,320
me think about time and then the arrow

1029
00:36:55,190 --> 00:36:54,000
of physics

1030
00:36:56,710 --> 00:36:55,200
and i'm wondering if you had any

1031
00:36:59,829 --> 00:36:56,720
thoughts on the nature of time or the

1032
00:37:05,510 --> 00:36:59,839
nature of era of time and physics

1033
00:37:10,470 --> 00:37:07,589
how good they are but i i've thought

1034
00:37:13,349 --> 00:37:10,480
about it an enormous amount

1035
00:37:14,790 --> 00:37:13,359
and physicists themselves are divided on

1036
00:37:16,630 --> 00:37:14,800
the arrow of time

1037
00:37:18,150 --> 00:37:16,640
but i tend to be with those who say that

1038
00:37:20,790 --> 00:37:18,160
without the arrow of time

1039
00:37:21,589 --> 00:37:20,800
nothing could mean or be anything at all

1040
00:37:24,790 --> 00:37:21,599
that all

1041
00:37:26,950 --> 00:37:24,800
that we know of physics even down to the

1042
00:37:28,710 --> 00:37:26,960
you know the most rarefied kind of

1043
00:37:30,550 --> 00:37:28,720
contemporary physique

1044
00:37:32,069 --> 00:37:30,560
none of it could be without the

1045
00:37:33,829 --> 00:37:32,079
existence of time

1046
00:37:35,829 --> 00:37:33,839
there could be no processes in fact

1047
00:37:38,069 --> 00:37:35,839
without time and i believe that this

1048
00:37:39,829 --> 00:37:38,079
processes are prior to things

1049
00:37:41,510 --> 00:37:39,839
which is partly why i entitled this book

1050
00:37:43,670 --> 00:37:41,520
the matter with things

1051
00:37:44,870 --> 00:37:43,680
it's a pun on various levels because i

1052
00:37:45,990 --> 00:37:44,880
think there's a problem with our

1053
00:37:47,589 --> 00:37:46,000
material

1054
00:37:49,750 --> 00:37:47,599
obsession and there's a problem with our

1055
00:37:52,870 --> 00:37:49,760
thinking the world is made up of things

1056
00:37:53,349 --> 00:37:52,880
so i think you know i don't take the

1057
00:37:55,589 --> 00:37:53,359
block

1058
00:37:56,950 --> 00:37:55,599
theory of time you know that it's really

1059
00:37:59,829 --> 00:37:56,960
a static thing but we just

1060
00:38:01,510 --> 00:37:59,839
move about it nor do i take the view

1061
00:38:07,589 --> 00:38:01,520
that

1062
00:38:09,750 --> 00:38:07,599
most of the philosophers who've tried to

1063
00:38:11,670 --> 00:38:09,760
approach time

1064
00:38:13,270 --> 00:38:11,680
with the single exception of bergson

1065
00:38:16,710 --> 00:38:13,280
seem to me to have

1066
00:38:18,630 --> 00:38:16,720
confused what they're talking about and

1067
00:38:19,829 --> 00:38:18,640
unfortunately most people nowadays don't

1068
00:38:23,589 --> 00:38:19,839
read bergson

1069
00:38:27,190 --> 00:38:23,599
is they've inherited a prejudice

1070
00:38:29,109 --> 00:38:27,200
that somehow bergson was wrong

1071
00:38:30,550 --> 00:38:29,119
because he had a debate with einstein in

1072
00:38:31,589 --> 00:38:30,560
which it said he didn't understand

1073
00:38:35,349 --> 00:38:31,599
einstein

1074
00:38:36,790 --> 00:38:35,359
didn't understand bergson

1075
00:38:38,870 --> 00:38:36,800
they were looking at two different

1076
00:38:41,430 --> 00:38:38,880
things and they weren't necessarily at

1077
00:38:43,270 --> 00:38:41,440
odds with one another

1078
00:38:45,510 --> 00:38:43,280
einstein was looking at a kind of time

1079
00:38:48,710 --> 00:38:45,520
like a clock time

1080
00:38:50,710 --> 00:38:48,720
whereas bergson was looking at time

1081
00:38:52,950 --> 00:38:50,720
as not something that can be measured in

1082
00:38:56,069 --> 00:38:52,960
that way and

1083
00:38:59,670 --> 00:38:56,079
the distinction between a flow

1084
00:39:01,750 --> 00:38:59,680
and a series is absolutely fundamental

1085
00:39:05,030 --> 00:39:01,760
and bergson spent most of his life

1086
00:39:07,829 --> 00:39:05,040
trying to help people see why this was

1087
00:39:09,190 --> 00:39:07,839
so fundamental and when i saw it it was

1088
00:39:11,510 --> 00:39:09,200
absolutely one of the three or four

1089
00:39:13,589 --> 00:39:11,520
great eureka moments of my life

1090
00:39:15,430 --> 00:39:13,599
i saw that a lot of the problems that we

1091
00:39:16,950 --> 00:39:15,440
have philosophically speaking and with

1092
00:39:20,390 --> 00:39:16,960
our attitude to the world

1093
00:39:21,109 --> 00:39:20,400
come from us having seen a seamless

1094
00:39:23,910 --> 00:39:21,119
motion

1095
00:39:24,870 --> 00:39:23,920
as a concatenation of an infinite number

1096
00:39:26,950 --> 00:39:24,880
of slices

1097
00:39:29,030 --> 00:39:26,960
that sounds like an almost technical

1098
00:39:32,390 --> 00:39:29,040
difference but in fact

1099
00:39:35,030 --> 00:39:32,400
it goes right to the core of

1100
00:39:37,750 --> 00:39:35,040
the two versions of the world that come

1101
00:39:40,150 --> 00:39:37,760
into being because the left hemisphere

1102
00:39:41,430 --> 00:39:40,160
is always trying to stop time it's

1103
00:39:43,510 --> 00:39:41,440
always trying to freeze time

1104
00:39:45,270 --> 00:39:43,520
because imagine its idea is to pick

1105
00:39:48,230 --> 00:39:45,280
something up or to catch something

1106
00:39:49,030 --> 00:39:48,240
so it it wants to freeze it and catch it

1107
00:39:52,230 --> 00:39:49,040
and get

1108
00:39:54,310 --> 00:39:52,240
it and have it and hold it but you know

1109
00:39:55,430 --> 00:39:54,320
as goethe said as blake said when you

1110
00:39:58,630 --> 00:39:55,440
try to freeze

1111
00:40:01,670 --> 00:39:58,640
the fleeing moment then you're lost

1112
00:40:05,349 --> 00:40:01,680
because all is in this process

1113
00:40:06,630 --> 00:40:05,359
of change and flow and it's respecting

1114
00:40:10,710 --> 00:40:06,640
that

1115
00:40:12,950 --> 00:40:10,720
wise not

1116
00:40:14,550 --> 00:40:12,960
trying to resist it or pretend it

1117
00:40:16,790 --> 00:40:14,560
doesn't exist

1118
00:40:18,150 --> 00:40:16,800
so those are some of my thoughts about

1119
00:40:19,910 --> 00:40:18,160
time

1120
00:40:21,270 --> 00:40:19,920
what is the other model then so i know

1121
00:40:21,750 --> 00:40:21,280
you can't go through berkson's entire

1122
00:40:22,870 --> 00:40:21,760
model

1123
00:40:25,430 --> 00:40:22,880
and i'm assuming you're talking about

1124
00:40:28,630 --> 00:40:25,440
bergson as in henry berkson

1125
00:40:30,150 --> 00:40:28,640
absolutely yes yes okay okay yes

1126
00:40:32,309 --> 00:40:30,160
all i know about henry berkson is that

1127
00:40:33,030 --> 00:40:32,319
he's associated with bohmian mechanics

1128
00:40:34,710 --> 00:40:33,040
and i need to

1129
00:40:36,150 --> 00:40:34,720
investigate more about bergson's

1130
00:40:37,990 --> 00:40:36,160
theories i've been told to

1131
00:40:39,349 --> 00:40:38,000
so that's on my list for those who are

1132
00:40:41,990 --> 00:40:39,359
listening and are eager

1133
00:40:43,030 --> 00:40:42,000
i'm working on it what's the alternative

1134
00:40:45,349 --> 00:40:43,040
to viewing

1135
00:40:46,710 --> 00:40:45,359
time as in infinite slices infinitesimal

1136
00:40:48,630 --> 00:40:46,720
slices

1137
00:40:49,829 --> 00:40:48,640
well what he noticed and it's very

1138
00:40:51,990 --> 00:40:49,839
important

1139
00:40:53,990 --> 00:40:52,000
is that it only can be turned into

1140
00:40:55,829 --> 00:40:54,000
slices retrospectively

1141
00:40:57,910 --> 00:40:55,839
and it's like a point on a line when you

1142
00:40:59,750 --> 00:40:57,920
draw a line you don't draw

1143
00:41:01,670 --> 00:40:59,760
a point infinitely small and then

1144
00:41:02,710 --> 00:41:01,680
another one and so on you the line is

1145
00:41:05,670 --> 00:41:02,720
there

1146
00:41:07,270 --> 00:41:05,680
in retrospect you can find a point at

1147
00:41:10,309 --> 00:41:07,280
which your pencil was at

1148
00:41:12,550 --> 00:41:10,319
point a in the line you can

1149
00:41:13,510 --> 00:41:12,560
you could designate it but actually

1150
00:41:15,270 --> 00:41:13,520
there wasn't

1151
00:41:17,030 --> 00:41:15,280
a business of going from point a to

1152
00:41:18,950 --> 00:41:17,040
point b or whatever

1153
00:41:21,910 --> 00:41:18,960
similarly if you move your arm it is a

1154
00:41:24,790 --> 00:41:21,920
single seamless motion

1155
00:41:25,510 --> 00:41:24,800
and you can't say i move it to a to b to

1156
00:41:28,510 --> 00:41:25,520
c to d

1157
00:41:29,750 --> 00:41:28,520
you don't but in retrospect the

1158
00:41:33,109 --> 00:41:29,760
representation

1159
00:41:35,670 --> 00:41:33,119
of motion can be dissected

1160
00:41:37,349 --> 00:41:35,680
but motion itself can't be dissected

1161
00:41:40,230 --> 00:41:37,359
similarly the representation

1162
00:41:42,150 --> 00:41:40,240
of time can be dissected but time itself

1163
00:41:44,790 --> 00:41:42,160
can't be dissected now why that is so

1164
00:41:46,710 --> 00:41:44,800
important to me is that one of the most

1165
00:41:48,550 --> 00:41:46,720
fundamental differences between the

1166
00:41:50,910 --> 00:41:48,560
right hemisphere and the left

1167
00:41:52,390 --> 00:41:50,920
is that the left hemisphere deals with

1168
00:41:54,230 --> 00:41:52,400
representations

1169
00:41:56,309 --> 00:41:54,240
so the right hemisphere deals with

1170
00:42:00,150 --> 00:41:56,319
things as they are present

1171
00:42:03,589 --> 00:42:00,160
more so it it deals with them as they

1172
00:42:05,510 --> 00:42:03,599
presence as heidiger would have said

1173
00:42:07,109 --> 00:42:05,520
has they at the very moment that they

1174
00:42:08,950 --> 00:42:07,119
are not just present because that sounds

1175
00:42:10,710 --> 00:42:08,960
rather passive and mechanical

1176
00:42:13,030 --> 00:42:10,720
but as their presence they come into

1177
00:42:17,510 --> 00:42:13,040
being for you they come into your

1178
00:42:19,510 --> 00:42:17,520
your field of of of being an awareness

1179
00:42:21,430 --> 00:42:19,520
and the right the renee chemistry is

1180
00:42:23,190 --> 00:42:21,440
therefore with that living moment but

1181
00:42:25,109 --> 00:42:23,200
the left hemisphere

1182
00:42:26,950 --> 00:42:25,119
is categorizing things you can only

1183
00:42:29,750 --> 00:42:26,960
categorize them

1184
00:42:30,790 --> 00:42:29,760
a small time after you experience them

1185
00:42:33,910 --> 00:42:30,800
so

1186
00:42:36,950 --> 00:42:33,920
if you like its world is a world of

1187
00:42:40,069 --> 00:42:36,960
a schema a representation a map

1188
00:42:41,829 --> 00:42:40,079
which can only be made to make any sense

1189
00:42:43,510 --> 00:42:41,839
when there's something that can be

1190
00:42:43,990 --> 00:42:43,520
schematized when there's something that

1191
00:42:47,270 --> 00:42:44,000
can be

1192
00:42:49,589 --> 00:42:47,280
mapped so the difference between what is

1193
00:42:51,670 --> 00:42:49,599
in the present moment and what is

1194
00:42:55,030 --> 00:42:51,680
reflected on later

1195
00:42:57,030 --> 00:42:55,040
and dissected is profound

1196
00:42:58,710 --> 00:42:57,040
and what he noticed was that in our

1197
00:43:01,750 --> 00:42:58,720
thinking process because we stop

1198
00:43:04,630 --> 00:43:01,760
and talk and reflect on things we think

1199
00:43:05,349 --> 00:43:04,640
that we find the world as our left

1200
00:43:08,790 --> 00:43:05,359
hemisphere

1201
00:43:11,349 --> 00:43:08,800
intellect presents it as

1202
00:43:12,309 --> 00:43:11,359
a thing that's divided up into areas and

1203
00:43:14,390 --> 00:43:12,319
so on whereas

1204
00:43:16,230 --> 00:43:14,400
actually the experience of it is not

1205
00:43:19,270 --> 00:43:16,240
like that and because we're so

1206
00:43:22,870 --> 00:43:21,349
to seeing it the left hemisphere way

1207
00:43:24,390 --> 00:43:22,880
most people wouldn't see what i'm

1208
00:43:26,550 --> 00:43:24,400
talking about they just about i don't

1209
00:43:29,990 --> 00:43:26,560
know what he means by that i mean

1210
00:43:33,109 --> 00:43:30,000
how and it's almost like having to

1211
00:43:35,030 --> 00:43:33,119
see a spiritual insight or or sort of

1212
00:43:37,270 --> 00:43:35,040
you know it's almost like something one

1213
00:43:38,390 --> 00:43:37,280
would get from meditation to be able to

1214
00:43:43,030 --> 00:43:38,400
see

1215
00:43:45,589 --> 00:43:43,040
it it's it's obvious it's everywhere

1216
00:43:47,069 --> 00:43:45,599
that the world is this seamless flow and

1217
00:43:48,630 --> 00:43:47,079
it's quite different from a dead

1218
00:43:51,990 --> 00:43:48,640
concatenation of

1219
00:43:55,910 --> 00:43:53,990
you point out beautifully at one point

1220
00:43:57,670 --> 00:43:55,920
that language is like money

1221
00:43:59,270 --> 00:43:57,680
and i believe it's because it only takes

1222
00:44:01,910 --> 00:43:59,280
its value at the terminus

1223
00:44:03,270 --> 00:44:01,920
but you have to cash it in so for

1224
00:44:05,109 --> 00:44:03,280
example with cash

1225
00:44:06,550 --> 00:44:05,119
it's meaningless until you buy something

1226
00:44:07,990 --> 00:44:06,560
with it and then this

1227
00:44:10,230 --> 00:44:08,000
place in which it bottoms out is the

1228
00:44:11,829 --> 00:44:10,240
body in some sense okay

1229
00:44:14,870 --> 00:44:11,839
can you explain what that what you mean

1230
00:44:21,030 --> 00:44:18,309
well again what i mean is that um

1231
00:44:22,069 --> 00:44:21,040
we can be led into thinking that the

1232
00:44:29,270 --> 00:44:22,079
world is the world

1233
00:44:33,030 --> 00:44:29,280
as we reflect on it and

1234
00:44:35,270 --> 00:44:33,040
verbalize it but

1235
00:44:36,710 --> 00:44:35,280
because that's the bit that we're used

1236
00:44:38,550 --> 00:44:36,720
to attending to in fact the right

1237
00:44:40,150 --> 00:44:38,560
hemisphere can't speak for the vision

1238
00:44:41,990 --> 00:44:40,160
that it sees

1239
00:44:43,990 --> 00:44:42,000
so it has to somehow convey to the left

1240
00:44:46,630 --> 00:44:44,000
hemisphere

1241
00:44:47,270 --> 00:44:46,640
how to use language to convey things

1242
00:44:50,390 --> 00:44:47,280
that are not

1243
00:44:53,589 --> 00:44:50,400
structured serially and analytically in

1244
00:44:55,670 --> 00:44:53,599
the way that the left hemisphere prefers

1245
00:44:56,950 --> 00:44:55,680
this is why as i mentioned earlier bohr

1246
00:44:59,349 --> 00:44:56,960
said you can only talk about

1247
00:45:00,309 --> 00:44:59,359
physics you can only talk about the

1248
00:45:02,069 --> 00:45:00,319
sacred

1249
00:45:03,990 --> 00:45:02,079
by using poetry and the whole point

1250
00:45:07,109 --> 00:45:04,000
about poetry is that it allows one to

1251
00:45:08,230 --> 00:45:07,119
see beyond the everyday meanings of

1252
00:45:10,470 --> 00:45:08,240
words to

1253
00:45:11,510 --> 00:45:10,480
a web of interconnected meanings that

1254
00:45:14,230 --> 00:45:11,520
are hinted at

1255
00:45:15,589 --> 00:45:14,240
so in a good poem a phrase has

1256
00:45:17,750 --> 00:45:15,599
resonances that may set

1257
00:45:19,430 --> 00:45:17,760
seven or eight different things going in

1258
00:45:23,030 --> 00:45:19,440
your mind rather than

1259
00:45:26,230 --> 00:45:23,040
the clinical and illusory

1260
00:45:28,390 --> 00:45:26,240
uh antiseptic nature of

1261
00:45:29,510 --> 00:45:28,400
the words taken out of context and put

1262
00:45:33,349 --> 00:45:29,520
into a kind of

1263
00:45:36,790 --> 00:45:33,359
manual of instruction so

1264
00:45:37,910 --> 00:45:36,800
words arise out of our bodies they arise

1265
00:45:40,950 --> 00:45:37,920
historically

1266
00:45:43,510 --> 00:45:40,960
out of emotional responses

1267
00:45:44,950 --> 00:45:43,520
animals in their own way have a kind of

1268
00:45:48,069 --> 00:45:44,960
very primitive language

1269
00:45:48,790 --> 00:45:48,079
they make sounds that mean things and

1270
00:45:52,150 --> 00:45:48,800
they express

1271
00:45:54,710 --> 00:45:52,160
themselves in gesture and in words

1272
00:45:56,069 --> 00:45:54,720
and there's a very long-standing

1273
00:46:01,349 --> 00:45:56,079
tradition

1274
00:46:05,589 --> 00:46:01,359
um coming forth into the 20th century

1275
00:46:07,990 --> 00:46:05,599
that language evolved out of

1276
00:46:08,870 --> 00:46:08,000
the generation of embodied meaning in

1277
00:46:10,870 --> 00:46:08,880
sound

1278
00:46:12,790 --> 00:46:10,880
in other words out of music and this is

1279
00:46:14,550 --> 00:46:12,800
where although i very much admire

1280
00:46:16,390 --> 00:46:14,560
stephen pinker in many ways i do

1281
00:46:18,710 --> 00:46:16,400
rather take issue with his notion that

1282
00:46:20,790 --> 00:46:18,720
music is sort of about as useful as

1283
00:46:24,470 --> 00:46:20,800
pornography or cheesecake

1284
00:46:28,309 --> 00:46:24,480
music is terrifically profound

1285
00:46:29,990 --> 00:46:28,319
and is um is actually

1286
00:46:31,430 --> 00:46:30,000
more profound than language which is why

1287
00:46:32,470 --> 00:46:31,440
we often say well it's beyond me to

1288
00:46:34,710 --> 00:46:32,480
express and

1289
00:46:37,430 --> 00:46:34,720
and so forth but it's not just the very

1290
00:46:39,510 --> 00:46:37,440
rarified things that are beyond language

1291
00:46:40,950 --> 00:46:39,520
the philosopher brian mcgee makes a very

1292
00:46:43,829 --> 00:46:40,960
good point

1293
00:46:45,030 --> 00:46:43,839
that from the the most exalted things to

1294
00:46:48,150 --> 00:46:45,040
the most humble things

1295
00:46:49,829 --> 00:46:48,160
so he says for example the the towel

1296
00:46:52,230 --> 00:46:49,839
that i've dropped on the bathroom floor

1297
00:46:53,750 --> 00:46:52,240
there is no language to describe the

1298
00:46:56,470 --> 00:46:53,760
shades of color in it

1299
00:46:58,309 --> 00:46:56,480
the configuration of the folds the way

1300
00:46:59,190 --> 00:46:58,319
in which it relates to everything else

1301
00:47:01,190 --> 00:46:59,200
in the room

1302
00:47:02,309 --> 00:47:01,200
and yet my consciousness immediately

1303
00:47:05,109 --> 00:47:02,319
takes all that in

1304
00:47:06,870 --> 00:47:05,119
i'm aware of it i know it but there's no

1305
00:47:09,990 --> 00:47:06,880
way i can do it in language

1306
00:47:10,790 --> 00:47:10,000
and how can i say leonardo's supper you

1307
00:47:13,750 --> 00:47:10,800
know how

1308
00:47:16,150 --> 00:47:13,760
how do you so language we we we fool

1309
00:47:18,390 --> 00:47:16,160
ourselves when we think that language

1310
00:47:20,630 --> 00:47:18,400
is where we live language is something

1311
00:47:21,430 --> 00:47:20,640
we use to try and communicate a certain

1312
00:47:24,390 --> 00:47:21,440
level

1313
00:47:26,150 --> 00:47:24,400
of meaning about the world but not all

1314
00:47:28,790 --> 00:47:26,160
of its meaning

1315
00:47:30,950 --> 00:47:28,800
so what if someone says we can using

1316
00:47:33,430 --> 00:47:30,960
language or some language

1317
00:47:35,430 --> 00:47:33,440
give a representation a fairly accurate

1318
00:47:36,870 --> 00:47:35,440
one of the last supper

1319
00:47:39,430 --> 00:47:36,880
by taking a picture of it and then the

1320
00:47:41,349 --> 00:47:39,440
zeros and ones that are the rgb values

1321
00:47:42,470 --> 00:47:41,359
you're not able to read and consciously

1322
00:47:44,710 --> 00:47:42,480
comprehend it as a

1323
00:47:46,069 --> 00:47:44,720
human being but in some way shape or

1324
00:47:48,870 --> 00:47:46,079
form it's information

1325
00:47:50,390 --> 00:47:48,880
what if someone says that well they've

1326
00:47:52,230 --> 00:47:50,400
just

1327
00:47:54,230 --> 00:47:52,240
definitely sidestepped the problem by

1328
00:47:56,870 --> 00:47:54,240
saying if we take all these

1329
00:47:58,069 --> 00:47:56,880
um ones and zeroes which if you look at

1330
00:48:00,150 --> 00:47:58,079
them and i look at them

1331
00:48:01,829 --> 00:48:00,160
there's no last supper there we can put

1332
00:48:04,390 --> 00:48:01,839
them into a machine which creates a

1333
00:48:07,349 --> 00:48:04,400
simulacrum we've developed a machine

1334
00:48:07,670 --> 00:48:07,359
with instructions on make this come to

1335
00:48:09,990 --> 00:48:07,680
be

1336
00:48:11,349 --> 00:48:10,000
something like the last supper so that's

1337
00:48:13,670 --> 00:48:11,359
really

1338
00:48:15,829 --> 00:48:13,680
that's just a way of circumventing the

1339
00:48:16,390 --> 00:48:15,839
point which it has not been expressed in

1340
00:48:18,630 --> 00:48:16,400
words

1341
00:48:20,630 --> 00:48:18,640
it i mean there are certain things you

1342
00:48:22,470 --> 00:48:20,640
can try to express in words but you you

1343
00:48:24,069 --> 00:48:22,480
immediately come down to a handful of

1344
00:48:26,549 --> 00:48:24,079
cliched terms

1345
00:48:27,270 --> 00:48:26,559
as nietzsche says language makes the

1346
00:48:29,349 --> 00:48:27,280
uncommon

1347
00:48:30,950 --> 00:48:29,359
common you know because there's only so

1348
00:48:33,510 --> 00:48:30,960
many words you can use to describe

1349
00:48:35,510 --> 00:48:33,520
someone's appearance you know they're

1350
00:48:37,349 --> 00:48:35,520
tall or short or thin or fat or black or

1351
00:48:39,750 --> 00:48:37,359
white or whatever they are

1352
00:48:40,790 --> 00:48:39,760
and they have this colored hair and that

1353
00:48:42,950 --> 00:48:40,800
colored eyes and

1354
00:48:44,390 --> 00:48:42,960
so on but that doesn't get you any

1355
00:48:48,710 --> 00:48:44,400
nearer to what your

1356
00:48:51,270 --> 00:48:48,720
your loved one looks like you know so uh

1357
00:48:53,270 --> 00:48:51,280
language is a a very useful tool but

1358
00:48:55,750 --> 00:48:53,280
that's all it is

1359
00:48:57,030 --> 00:48:55,760
and it it comes about we learn language

1360
00:48:57,750 --> 00:48:57,040
and i know you're going to be talking to

1361
00:49:00,950 --> 00:48:57,760
chomsky

1362
00:49:01,990 --> 00:49:00,960
and you may have noticed that i gently

1363
00:49:05,030 --> 00:49:02,000
disagree

1364
00:49:05,349 --> 00:49:05,040
with the i dare to gently decrease but

1365
00:49:06,549 --> 00:49:05,359
i'm

1366
00:49:08,790 --> 00:49:06,559
encouraged by the fact lots of other

1367
00:49:12,069 --> 00:49:08,800
people do too with the idea that

1368
00:49:14,710 --> 00:49:12,079
it is something like um

1369
00:49:15,990 --> 00:49:14,720
an abstract system in in the brain like

1370
00:49:18,150 --> 00:49:16,000
it could be in a computer

1371
00:49:20,790 --> 00:49:18,160
waiting for stuff to be filled in

1372
00:49:23,109 --> 00:49:20,800
because in fact we develop language

1373
00:49:25,829 --> 00:49:23,119
through the process of interrelationship

1374
00:49:29,030 --> 00:49:25,839
with other people in an embodied way

1375
00:49:31,030 --> 00:49:29,040
which involves emotion and

1376
00:49:32,390 --> 00:49:31,040
feeling and gesture and so on this is

1377
00:49:35,430 --> 00:49:32,400
how children learn

1378
00:49:38,549 --> 00:49:35,440
words um and

1379
00:49:39,270 --> 00:49:38,559
so language has its roots in emotion and

1380
00:49:41,510 --> 00:49:39,280
the body

1381
00:49:42,309 --> 00:49:41,520
it's not some abstract clinical thing

1382
00:49:45,910 --> 00:49:42,319
that then gets

1383
00:49:48,870 --> 00:49:45,920
clothed in emotion in the body it starts

1384
00:49:49,430 --> 00:49:48,880
from those places that's my point

1385
00:49:51,030 --> 00:49:49,440
metaphor

1386
00:49:52,870 --> 00:49:51,040
is language is cure for the ills

1387
00:49:55,829 --> 00:49:52,880
entailed to abide language

1388
00:49:56,870 --> 00:49:55,839
explain that that's another one that's

1389
00:49:58,309 --> 00:49:56,880
just beautiful

1390
00:50:01,829 --> 00:49:58,319
that's a quote okay well it's a

1391
00:50:09,190 --> 00:50:05,670
well it tries to compress the idea

1392
00:50:11,750 --> 00:50:09,200
that what are the ills i'm referring to

1393
00:50:14,710 --> 00:50:11,760
well the ills are

1394
00:50:15,670 --> 00:50:14,720
as i say that something that is only a

1395
00:50:18,069 --> 00:50:15,680
symbol

1396
00:50:20,630 --> 00:50:18,079
or representation of something has to

1397
00:50:23,190 --> 00:50:20,640
the thing that it represents

1398
00:50:23,990 --> 00:50:23,200
and in this way it's like money that

1399
00:50:27,030 --> 00:50:24,000
money can

1400
00:50:29,030 --> 00:50:27,040
mean ultimately that i can

1401
00:50:31,109 --> 00:50:29,040
have lunch tomorrow with a friend or i

1402
00:50:34,150 --> 00:50:31,119
can you know buy a car or whatever it is

1403
00:50:37,190 --> 00:50:34,160
but the the

1404
00:50:39,349 --> 00:50:37,200
money itself only has that quality when

1405
00:50:40,630 --> 00:50:39,359
it's cashed back into life which is very

1406
00:50:42,390 --> 00:50:40,640
complex thing

1407
00:50:43,910 --> 00:50:42,400
and language is rather like this we can

1408
00:50:46,150 --> 00:50:43,920
refer to things

1409
00:50:48,150 --> 00:50:46,160
but the experience that we refer to is

1410
00:50:51,430 --> 00:50:48,160
no longer in

1411
00:50:53,349 --> 00:50:51,440
the representation or the reference it's

1412
00:50:55,190 --> 00:50:53,359
it's implied by it that it isn't

1413
00:50:58,390 --> 00:50:55,200
actually

1414
00:51:00,630 --> 00:50:58,400
there but that doesn't matter because

1415
00:51:02,790 --> 00:51:00,640
we think metaphorically all the time and

1416
00:51:04,710 --> 00:51:02,800
all language is metaphorical

1417
00:51:06,790 --> 00:51:04,720
interestingly the language of science

1418
00:51:08,230 --> 00:51:06,800
and philosophy is particularly heavily

1419
00:51:10,870 --> 00:51:08,240
dependent on for on

1420
00:51:11,990 --> 00:51:10,880
metaphor a point made by lakov and

1421
00:51:15,270 --> 00:51:12,000
johnson in their

1422
00:51:18,710 --> 00:51:15,280
wonderful books metaphors we live by and

1423
00:51:25,190 --> 00:51:22,069
so um metaphor

1424
00:51:27,510 --> 00:51:25,200
literally means a carrying a cross

1425
00:51:28,230 --> 00:51:27,520
and so if you imagine there is this sort

1426
00:51:32,150 --> 00:51:28,240
of

1427
00:51:36,230 --> 00:51:32,160
divide or gulf between

1428
00:51:38,390 --> 00:51:36,240
what the word love means and the

1429
00:51:41,750 --> 00:51:38,400
experience of love

1430
00:51:43,430 --> 00:51:41,760
metaphors can carry us across that

1431
00:51:45,670 --> 00:51:43,440
linguistic divide

1432
00:51:46,470 --> 00:51:45,680
they can take us back to the experience

1433
00:51:48,549 --> 00:51:46,480
of love

1434
00:51:50,870 --> 00:51:48,559
and so something as metaphorical as a

1435
00:51:51,750 --> 00:51:50,880
shakespeare play or at a piece of music

1436
00:51:54,710 --> 00:51:51,760
or whatever

1437
00:51:55,750 --> 00:51:54,720
and music is metaphorical it uses

1438
00:51:58,390 --> 00:51:55,760
metaphors based

1439
00:51:59,910 --> 00:51:58,400
on bodily movements so risings and

1440
00:52:02,309 --> 00:51:59,920
fallings and

1441
00:52:03,109 --> 00:52:02,319
resonances and all those things that are

1442
00:52:05,910 --> 00:52:03,119
experienced

1443
00:52:06,790 --> 00:52:05,920
in a bodily sense so these things are

1444
00:52:09,829 --> 00:52:06,800
evoked

1445
00:52:12,470 --> 00:52:09,839
in great art in ritual in religion and

1446
00:52:13,430 --> 00:52:12,480
in narratives in mythology and and so

1447
00:52:16,230 --> 00:52:13,440
forth

1448
00:52:18,230 --> 00:52:16,240
and they take us back across the divide

1449
00:52:19,829 --> 00:52:18,240
from those sterile words

1450
00:52:21,430 --> 00:52:19,839
to the thing that those words were

1451
00:52:25,030 --> 00:52:21,440
trying but not

1452
00:52:28,150 --> 00:52:27,589
speaking of lakov and johnson you

1453
00:52:29,910 --> 00:52:28,160
mentioned

1454
00:52:31,510 --> 00:52:29,920
well it's in your book a couple quotes

1455
00:52:32,950 --> 00:52:31,520
from them one is that

1456
00:52:34,230 --> 00:52:32,960
reason doesn't separate us from the

1457
00:52:35,430 --> 00:52:34,240
animals but instead puts us on a

1458
00:52:38,790 --> 00:52:35,440
continuum with it

1459
00:52:39,990 --> 00:52:38,800
because we're well reason is predicated

1460
00:52:42,870 --> 00:52:40,000
in embodiment

1461
00:52:43,589 --> 00:52:42,880
now i'm wondering if you can explain

1462
00:52:45,589 --> 00:52:43,599
that because

1463
00:52:46,950 --> 00:52:45,599
reason to me has to do with logical

1464
00:52:47,510 --> 00:52:46,960
inference and so on like if then

1465
00:52:49,349 --> 00:52:47,520
statements

1466
00:52:53,270 --> 00:52:49,359
how is an if then statement related to

1467
00:52:56,309 --> 00:52:54,470
well i think the problem might be in

1468
00:52:57,190 --> 00:52:56,319
thinking too literalistically about what

1469
00:53:00,870 --> 00:52:57,200
your body

1470
00:53:02,230 --> 00:53:00,880
is um

1471
00:53:04,150 --> 00:53:02,240
i mean it might not be as it were in

1472
00:53:07,750 --> 00:53:04,160
your thumb i agree

1473
00:53:10,790 --> 00:53:07,760
but your body is everything that is you

1474
00:53:13,190 --> 00:53:10,800
apart from well not apart from anything

1475
00:53:17,190 --> 00:53:13,200
really i mean

1476
00:53:20,870 --> 00:53:17,200
we are for the time that we are alive

1477
00:53:27,670 --> 00:53:23,990
what our bodies make us

1478
00:53:30,950 --> 00:53:27,680
and animals that don't have language

1479
00:53:33,670 --> 00:53:30,960
and don't apparently have

1480
00:53:36,069 --> 00:53:33,680
any kind of schema of logic can solve

1481
00:53:39,109 --> 00:53:36,079
logical puzzles they can reason things

1482
00:53:43,349 --> 00:53:39,119
you know crows and magpies

1483
00:53:45,109 --> 00:53:43,359
can give correct answers to logical

1484
00:53:47,589 --> 00:53:45,119
problems as an eight or nine year old

1485
00:53:49,349 --> 00:53:47,599
human being won't

1486
00:53:50,790 --> 00:53:49,359
i mean that's just one example but i

1487
00:53:53,589 --> 00:53:50,800
mean the more one

1488
00:53:54,549 --> 00:53:53,599
reads about animals and even insects the

1489
00:53:57,430 --> 00:53:54,559
more one

1490
00:53:58,390 --> 00:53:57,440
realizes that the concept that only we

1491
00:54:03,750 --> 00:53:58,400
can act

1492
00:54:07,670 --> 00:54:05,349
you've probably seen on youtube there is

1493
00:54:11,109 --> 00:54:07,680
in fact

1494
00:54:13,190 --> 00:54:11,119
a filmed episode of a crow solving an

1495
00:54:15,190 --> 00:54:13,200
eight-step logical puzzle

1496
00:54:16,390 --> 00:54:15,200
and although it has solved each step of

1497
00:54:19,030 --> 00:54:16,400
the puzzle

1498
00:54:20,630 --> 00:54:19,040
in isolation before it has never solved

1499
00:54:22,470 --> 00:54:20,640
this particular sequence

1500
00:54:24,150 --> 00:54:22,480
and in a matter of about three minutes

1501
00:54:26,230 --> 00:54:24,160
or five minutes it's not a very long

1502
00:54:28,230 --> 00:54:26,240
clip it has actually taken the eight

1503
00:54:29,510 --> 00:54:28,240
steps that will allow it to secure the

1504
00:54:32,710 --> 00:54:29,520
food that it's after

1505
00:54:33,750 --> 00:54:32,720
now i mean that's in itself what do you

1506
00:54:35,510 --> 00:54:33,760
say about that

1507
00:54:37,349 --> 00:54:35,520
you know is it the crow's language is

1508
00:54:40,549 --> 00:54:37,359
its mathematics or what

1509
00:54:42,390 --> 00:54:40,559
somehow from experience and our bodies

1510
00:54:45,349 --> 00:54:42,400
are the repositories of

1511
00:54:46,950 --> 00:54:45,359
all our experience that is that is

1512
00:54:49,430 --> 00:54:46,960
solving this problem

1513
00:54:52,390 --> 00:54:49,440
and we don't solve half as many things

1514
00:54:54,549 --> 00:54:52,400
as we think by thinking about them

1515
00:54:55,990 --> 00:54:54,559
in fact nine tenths of all the great

1516
00:54:58,549 --> 00:54:56,000
decisions we make

1517
00:54:59,430 --> 00:54:58,559
are done unconsciously we arrive at them

1518
00:55:01,030 --> 00:54:59,440
unconsciously

1519
00:55:03,109 --> 00:55:01,040
after thinking about other things

1520
00:55:04,470 --> 00:55:03,119
sleeping and then saying i think i'll do

1521
00:55:06,470 --> 00:55:04,480
that

1522
00:55:07,750 --> 00:55:06,480
and when we are not aware of things as

1523
00:55:11,190 --> 00:55:07,760
julian james first

1524
00:55:13,589 --> 00:55:11,200
did out to me anyway in his 1976 book

1525
00:55:15,829 --> 00:55:13,599
um the origins of consciousness in the

1526
00:55:17,510 --> 00:55:15,839
breakdown of the bicameral mind

1527
00:55:20,390 --> 00:55:17,520
we don't really need consciousness for

1528
00:55:23,750 --> 00:55:20,400
very much we can weigh

1529
00:55:26,870 --> 00:55:23,760
options form judgments solve puzzles

1530
00:55:29,190 --> 00:55:26,880
evaluate beauty fall in love um

1531
00:55:31,270 --> 00:55:29,200
and do many many things without thinking

1532
00:55:34,549 --> 00:55:31,280
about them

1533
00:55:37,750 --> 00:55:34,559
at some level we are working on them

1534
00:55:38,710 --> 00:55:37,760
but that what the left hemisphere

1535
00:55:41,670 --> 00:55:38,720
privileges as

1536
00:55:42,870 --> 00:55:41,680
thinking is just the left hemispheres

1537
00:55:45,990 --> 00:55:42,880
kind of thinking

1538
00:55:48,230 --> 00:55:46,000
which is explicit in language

1539
00:55:50,309 --> 00:55:48,240
and foregrounding whatever is in the

1540
00:55:52,950 --> 00:55:50,319
mind but there's a whole

1541
00:55:53,750 --> 00:55:52,960
what we're conscious of is only one

1542
00:55:55,829 --> 00:55:53,760
percent

1543
00:55:58,870 --> 00:55:55,839
maximum of all that there is that's

1544
00:56:00,870 --> 00:55:58,880
going on in our minds

1545
00:56:02,230 --> 00:56:00,880
so the idea that you know we have to be

1546
00:56:04,870 --> 00:56:02,240
conscious and

1547
00:56:07,030 --> 00:56:04,880
reason in order to think cleverly is

1548
00:56:12,390 --> 00:56:07,040
wrong i mean my one of my favorite

1549
00:56:15,670 --> 00:56:14,630
in the book in fact on the structure of

1550
00:56:19,030 --> 00:56:15,680
mathematics he's

1551
00:56:20,710 --> 00:56:19,040
that um i can't remember the exact

1552
00:56:21,430 --> 00:56:20,720
phrase which is wonderful but he says

1553
00:56:24,710 --> 00:56:21,440
that

1554
00:56:28,549 --> 00:56:24,720
um conscious thought is like

1555
00:56:31,109 --> 00:56:28,559
cavalry charges in battle it's expensive

1556
00:56:33,750 --> 00:56:31,119
it's wasteful it requires fresh horses

1557
00:56:36,470 --> 00:56:33,760
and can only be done at unusual moments

1558
00:56:38,150 --> 00:56:36,480
so most of the time we're we're living

1559
00:56:39,190 --> 00:56:38,160
perfectly rationally perfectly

1560
00:56:41,190 --> 00:56:39,200
intelligently

1561
00:56:44,630 --> 00:56:41,200
but without actually thinking about

1562
00:56:46,630 --> 00:56:44,640
things explicitly

1563
00:56:47,990 --> 00:56:46,640
if we had different bodies or if we grew

1564
00:56:48,789 --> 00:56:48,000
up on a different planet a different

1565
00:56:51,349 --> 00:56:48,799
evolutionary

1566
00:56:52,789 --> 00:56:51,359
chain or tree would we have reason

1567
00:56:56,390 --> 00:56:52,799
differently would we reason differently

1568
00:57:02,710 --> 00:56:59,589
or is logic universal

1569
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:02,720
well how would i know i mean the too

1570
00:57:05,750 --> 00:57:04,650
many counterfactuals in that um

1571
00:57:09,030 --> 00:57:05,760
[Music]

1572
00:57:11,030 --> 00:57:09,040
you can't extrapolate from us to a being

1573
00:57:14,069 --> 00:57:11,040
that we can only imagine

1574
00:57:15,910 --> 00:57:14,079
and we don't know everything in fact we

1575
00:57:17,990 --> 00:57:15,920
can only know what it is

1576
00:57:19,750 --> 00:57:18,000
how about let me rephrase it is logic or

1577
00:57:21,109 --> 00:57:19,760
the way that we formulated logic and

1578
00:57:22,230 --> 00:57:21,119
rationality and reason which i'm

1579
00:57:23,109 --> 00:57:22,240
conflating and i know there's a

1580
00:57:25,589 --> 00:57:23,119
difference between them

1581
00:57:27,030 --> 00:57:25,599
but for the sake of this are they

1582
00:57:29,750 --> 00:57:27,040
substrate dependent

1583
00:57:31,589 --> 00:57:29,760
so the fact that we are human we came up

1584
00:57:33,910 --> 00:57:31,599
with reason in this particular manner

1585
00:57:35,270 --> 00:57:33,920
and that aliens might not share our

1586
00:57:38,390 --> 00:57:35,280
reason they would come up with different

1587
00:57:41,190 --> 00:57:38,400
inferences and it would be valid

1588
00:57:42,470 --> 00:57:41,200
well i would i mean again i don't think

1589
00:57:45,030 --> 00:57:42,480
anyone can be

1590
00:57:46,470 --> 00:57:45,040
certain about such things but my

1591
00:57:50,150 --> 00:57:46,480
intuition would be

1592
00:57:53,349 --> 00:57:50,160
that reason

1593
00:57:56,230 --> 00:57:53,359
and logic are if you like

1594
00:57:57,030 --> 00:57:56,240
substrate independent that they're not

1595
00:57:59,829 --> 00:57:57,040
just a human

1596
00:58:01,589 --> 00:57:59,839
invention but then i think that about a

1597
00:58:03,270 --> 00:58:01,599
lot of things that are not so much

1598
00:58:06,150 --> 00:58:03,280
inventions as discoveries uh

1599
00:58:07,109 --> 00:58:06,160
i mean confusingly the word invention

1600
00:58:09,829 --> 00:58:07,119
originally meant

1601
00:58:10,950 --> 00:58:09,839
to find something but it now i mean to

1602
00:58:13,990 --> 00:58:10,960
make it up

1603
00:58:17,589 --> 00:58:14,000
and and so what i think

1604
00:58:19,670 --> 00:58:17,599
we do in experience is come to an

1605
00:58:21,829 --> 00:58:19,680
awareness and an understanding of things

1606
00:58:23,589 --> 00:58:21,839
that are not entirely dependent on us

1607
00:58:26,789 --> 00:58:23,599
let me put it that way

1608
00:58:31,349 --> 00:58:26,799
and i think these things include um

1609
00:58:34,789 --> 00:58:31,359
essential values like good goodness

1610
00:58:37,109 --> 00:58:34,799
and evil and beauty and

1611
00:58:38,549 --> 00:58:37,119
things like that so and and this is not

1612
00:58:42,069 --> 00:58:38,559
unusual

1613
00:58:44,789 --> 00:58:42,079
um derek perfect who is a colleague

1614
00:58:45,430 --> 00:58:44,799
at all souls and i say a colleague i

1615
00:58:46,789 --> 00:58:45,440
mean

1616
00:58:48,710 --> 00:58:46,799
in that we were both fellows of the same

1617
00:58:49,990 --> 00:58:48,720
college but i mean he was a very great

1618
00:58:51,990 --> 00:58:50,000
philosopher and an

1619
00:58:53,270 --> 00:58:52,000
atheist but he believed that goodness

1620
00:58:55,190 --> 00:58:53,280
and beauty were

1621
00:58:56,549 --> 00:58:55,200
ontological primaries that they weren't

1622
00:58:58,150 --> 00:58:56,559
things that were just

1623
00:59:00,150 --> 00:58:58,160
valuations we put on things because we

1624
00:59:03,349 --> 00:59:00,160
happen to like them or not like them

1625
00:59:05,910 --> 00:59:03,359
and i would be i would be rather

1626
00:59:07,190 --> 00:59:05,920
inclined to that position too

1627
00:59:09,670 --> 00:59:07,200
you also talked about okay so

1628
00:59:11,270 --> 00:59:09,680
inventiveness is

1629
00:59:13,670 --> 00:59:11,280
the etymology of it is related to

1630
00:59:16,789 --> 00:59:13,680
finding and then also

1631
00:59:17,829 --> 00:59:16,799
being originated so being original has

1632
00:59:19,510 --> 00:59:17,839
to do with the origin

1633
00:59:20,950 --> 00:59:19,520
going back can you explain that because

1634
00:59:21,670 --> 00:59:20,960
that was one part of your book and your

1635
00:59:24,069 --> 00:59:21,680
book is quite

1636
00:59:25,829 --> 00:59:24,079
lengthy and i wanted to finish this in

1637
00:59:28,230 --> 00:59:25,839
time i spent the past

1638
00:59:29,510 --> 00:59:28,240
week or so just absorbing pretty much

1639
00:59:34,789 --> 00:59:29,520
pure ian

1640
00:59:37,030 --> 00:59:34,799
i made notes where i wasn't able to

1641
00:59:37,670 --> 00:59:37,040
comprehend fully and i just had to move

1642
00:59:43,430 --> 00:59:37,680
on

1643
00:59:45,349 --> 00:59:43,440
thinking or coming up with some original

1644
00:59:46,069 --> 00:59:45,359
object and its relationship we think of

1645
00:59:47,750 --> 00:59:46,079
it as a new

1646
00:59:50,470 --> 00:59:47,760
but you also made an analogy that it's

1647
00:59:54,390 --> 00:59:50,480
original that is it's going back

1648
00:59:56,150 --> 00:59:54,400
yes okay um again i can't remember

1649
00:59:57,750 --> 00:59:56,160
exactly what what it was i said that

1650
00:59:58,789 --> 00:59:57,760
you're referring to but i think i can

1651
01:00:02,789 --> 00:59:58,799
see

1652
01:00:06,789 --> 01:00:02,799
what's being hinted at um

1653
01:00:09,990 --> 01:00:06,799
it's partly a distinction if i may say

1654
01:00:11,109 --> 01:00:10,000
that is in similar structure to that

1655
01:00:15,109 --> 01:00:11,119
between

1656
01:00:18,150 --> 01:00:15,119
fantasy and imagination so

1657
01:00:19,270 --> 01:00:18,160
fantasy is the putting together in a

1658
01:00:22,230 --> 01:00:19,280
novel way

1659
01:00:24,309 --> 01:00:22,240
of things that elements that really we

1660
01:00:26,230 --> 01:00:24,319
have experienced and

1661
01:00:27,990 --> 01:00:26,240
are aware of but we put them together

1662
01:00:28,789 --> 01:00:28,000
rather as i say like those children's

1663
01:00:31,750 --> 01:00:28,799
books

1664
01:00:33,990 --> 01:00:31,760
where the pages are divided uh in into

1665
01:00:35,430 --> 01:00:34,000
three parts and you can turn the pages

1666
01:00:37,750 --> 01:00:35,440
and create animals with a

1667
01:00:38,630 --> 01:00:37,760
head of a seal and a body of a goat and

1668
01:00:41,829 --> 01:00:38,640
all that sort of thing

1669
01:00:43,430 --> 01:00:41,839
um so that is fantasy but imagination is

1670
01:00:45,589 --> 01:00:43,440
looking at something

1671
01:00:47,109 --> 01:00:45,599
that you think you know and it seems

1672
01:00:48,870 --> 01:00:47,119
entirely ordinary

1673
01:00:51,030 --> 01:00:48,880
and suddenly seeing it for the first

1674
01:00:52,950 --> 01:00:51,040
time this is something wordsworth wrote

1675
01:00:54,829 --> 01:00:52,960
about a great deal that it wasn't about

1676
01:00:57,829 --> 01:00:54,839
striving for something

1677
01:01:01,109 --> 01:00:57,839
um outside of the ordinary

1678
01:01:02,150 --> 01:01:01,119
it was finding the extraordinary within

1679
01:01:04,870 --> 01:01:02,160
the ordinary

1680
01:01:05,190 --> 01:01:04,880
now when when you talk about the origin

1681
01:01:11,030 --> 01:01:05,200
or

1682
01:01:12,870 --> 01:01:11,040
revolutionaries and and i don't mean to

1683
01:01:13,829 --> 01:01:12,880
say political revolutionaries especially

1684
01:01:16,390 --> 01:01:13,839
i mean people who

1685
01:01:17,270 --> 01:01:16,400
brought about paradigm shifts in our

1686
01:01:20,309 --> 01:01:17,280
thinking

1687
01:01:22,390 --> 01:01:20,319
did so by going back to perception that

1688
01:01:25,109 --> 01:01:22,400
had been lost sight of

1689
01:01:26,870 --> 01:01:25,119
sometimes a thousand years ago or more

1690
01:01:28,789 --> 01:01:26,880
and they renovated something that had

1691
01:01:30,870 --> 01:01:28,799
been lost from the culture

1692
01:01:31,829 --> 01:01:30,880
and that was what was revolutionary

1693
01:01:34,870 --> 01:01:31,839
about it

1694
01:01:36,789 --> 01:01:34,880
so that i don't think that

1695
01:01:37,990 --> 01:01:36,799
an original thinker was somebody who

1696
01:01:41,030 --> 01:01:38,000
just makes it all up

1697
01:01:44,789 --> 01:01:41,040
because none of us do that we are all

1698
01:01:46,950 --> 01:01:44,799
the repositories of centuries millennia

1699
01:01:48,630 --> 01:01:46,960
of other people's experience that has

1700
01:01:51,750 --> 01:01:48,640
gone into the making of us

1701
01:01:52,549 --> 01:01:51,760
and into the ideas that we believe and

1702
01:01:55,670 --> 01:01:52,559
so

1703
01:01:56,870 --> 01:01:55,680
to strive to be original is to cut

1704
01:01:58,470 --> 01:01:56,880
yourself off from that

1705
01:02:00,390 --> 01:01:58,480
and to cut yourself off from the rest of

1706
01:02:03,109 --> 01:02:00,400
humanity saying look i did this

1707
01:02:03,430 --> 01:02:03,119
on my own whereas i think that is a you

1708
01:02:06,309 --> 01:02:03,440
know

1709
01:02:08,069 --> 01:02:06,319
a typical problem of our age that it's

1710
01:02:09,349 --> 01:02:08,079
great that we're individuals don't get

1711
01:02:12,390 --> 01:02:09,359
me wrong and i think that

1712
01:02:14,630 --> 01:02:12,400
you know conformism is a problem but

1713
01:02:16,950 --> 01:02:14,640
we are only also individuals because we

1714
01:02:18,549 --> 01:02:16,960
also belong together in a society that

1715
01:02:22,309 --> 01:02:18,559
both brings together

1716
01:02:24,950 --> 01:02:22,319
and nourishes individual flourishing

1717
01:02:26,390 --> 01:02:24,960
curiously the coming together helps the

1718
01:02:28,710 --> 01:02:26,400
being different

1719
01:02:29,750 --> 01:02:28,720
i i sometimes talk about a couple in a

1720
01:02:32,710 --> 01:02:29,760
relationship

1721
01:02:35,430 --> 01:02:32,720
that a good couple is one who become

1722
01:02:37,829 --> 01:02:35,440
more themselves through the relationship

1723
01:02:39,510 --> 01:02:37,839
not less though but it sacrificed their

1724
01:02:40,710 --> 01:02:39,520
individuality but it is actually

1725
01:02:44,069 --> 01:02:40,720
realized

1726
01:02:47,829 --> 01:02:44,079
and enriched and fought in

1727
01:02:49,349 --> 01:02:47,839
greater being by the the relationship

1728
01:02:51,829 --> 01:02:49,359
going back to where we started

1729
01:02:53,349 --> 01:02:51,839
that relationships create the things

1730
01:02:55,349 --> 01:02:53,359
that are related as much as the other

1731
01:02:56,870 --> 01:02:55,359
way around okay here's what occurs to me

1732
01:02:58,630 --> 01:02:56,880
when you say that so let's say you have

1733
01:03:00,950 --> 01:02:58,640
a great couple let's say you are you

1734
01:03:05,430 --> 01:03:00,960
married

1735
01:03:06,870 --> 01:03:05,440
so let's just take me as an example

1736
01:03:08,870 --> 01:03:06,880
yeah let's say me and my wife i find

1737
01:03:10,870 --> 01:03:08,880
that the longer i spend with her

1738
01:03:12,309 --> 01:03:10,880
the more i do feel authentic but at the

1739
01:03:13,510 --> 01:03:12,319
same time and the more she feels

1740
01:03:15,029 --> 01:03:13,520
authentic but at the same time i can

1741
01:03:16,710 --> 01:03:15,039
imagine we're becoming closer

1742
01:03:18,630 --> 01:03:16,720
and more and more akin to one another's

1743
01:03:21,190 --> 01:03:18,640
personality so then i wonder

1744
01:03:23,029 --> 01:03:21,200
is the most authentic self for each

1745
01:03:23,750 --> 01:03:23,039
individual as we come closer and closer

1746
01:03:27,750 --> 01:03:23,760
to our core

1747
01:03:29,029 --> 01:03:27,760
is it the same or extremely similar

1748
01:03:30,950 --> 01:03:29,039
because otherwise i can't make sense of

1749
01:03:31,990 --> 01:03:30,960
this paradox of you becoming authentic

1750
01:03:33,750 --> 01:03:32,000
as an individual

1751
01:03:35,829 --> 01:03:33,760
but at the same time becoming closer to

1752
01:03:38,470 --> 01:03:35,839
other people

1753
01:03:40,230 --> 01:03:38,480
well i think that the deep structure of

1754
01:03:42,150 --> 01:03:40,240
reality is entirely

1755
01:03:45,109 --> 01:03:42,160
paradoxical to the left hemisphere's

1756
01:03:49,349 --> 01:03:45,119
take on it that things that are opposite

1757
01:03:51,270 --> 01:03:49,359
are absolutely bound up with one another

1758
01:03:53,029 --> 01:03:51,280
and it's the left hemisphere that wants

1759
01:03:55,029 --> 01:03:53,039
things to be either the one thing or the

1760
01:03:56,309 --> 01:03:55,039
other either to be separate or to be

1761
01:03:59,270 --> 01:03:56,319
together

1762
01:04:00,789 --> 01:03:59,280
but the right hemisphere sees it it

1763
01:04:04,390 --> 01:04:00,799
doesn't have to be either or

1764
01:04:07,990 --> 01:04:04,400
it has to be both and and what's more

1765
01:04:10,950 --> 01:04:08,000
it has to be both either or and

1766
01:04:13,750 --> 01:04:10,960
both and i don't know if you've heard of

1767
01:04:17,270 --> 01:04:13,760
para consistent logic with grand priest

1768
01:04:18,950 --> 01:04:17,280
i have yes yes and i'm not sure i

1769
01:04:20,710 --> 01:04:18,960
entirely understand it but what i know

1770
01:04:23,270 --> 01:04:20,720
of it i rather like

1771
01:04:23,829 --> 01:04:23,280
yeah okay so explain to me to the

1772
01:04:28,630 --> 01:04:23,839
audience

1773
01:04:35,430 --> 01:04:32,230
um well that's a big question

1774
01:04:39,270 --> 01:04:35,440
but when we say something is something

1775
01:04:41,829 --> 01:04:39,280
we may well mean when viewed in this way

1776
01:04:43,109 --> 01:04:41,839
or in this context change the context

1777
01:04:45,430 --> 01:04:43,119
change the point of view

1778
01:04:46,309 --> 01:04:45,440
and they're equally something different

1779
01:04:47,750 --> 01:04:46,319
so

1780
01:04:49,750 --> 01:04:47,760
the trouble with the left hemisphere is

1781
01:04:52,549 --> 01:04:49,760
that it decontextualizes

1782
01:04:53,829 --> 01:04:52,559
this is very very important difference

1783
01:04:55,750 --> 01:04:53,839
the right hemisphere alone

1784
01:04:58,309 --> 01:04:55,760
understands that what a thing is is what

1785
01:04:59,190 --> 01:04:58,319
it is only because of the context in

1786
01:05:01,430 --> 01:04:59,200
which it is

1787
01:05:03,670 --> 01:05:01,440
and that context doesn't take away from

1788
01:05:05,109 --> 01:05:03,680
its being what it is but contributes it

1789
01:05:07,029 --> 01:05:05,119
to its being what it is

1790
01:05:09,829 --> 01:05:07,039
if you take the context away you

1791
01:05:11,670 --> 01:05:09,839
diminish it now that's just a very

1792
01:05:12,870 --> 01:05:11,680
obvious down-to-earth example of what

1793
01:05:15,910 --> 01:05:12,880
i'm really saying

1794
01:05:18,710 --> 01:05:15,920
that we we form social context

1795
01:05:21,990 --> 01:05:18,720
we form loving contexts and in those

1796
01:05:24,789 --> 01:05:22,000
contexts we are changed we are altered

1797
01:05:26,150 --> 01:05:24,799
everything we do everything we think

1798
01:05:27,910 --> 01:05:26,160
alters us

1799
01:05:30,230 --> 01:05:27,920
which is why we need to be careful about

1800
01:05:31,349 --> 01:05:30,240
how we think as i say attention is a

1801
01:05:33,670 --> 01:05:31,359
moral act

1802
01:05:35,029 --> 01:05:33,680
it changes us and it changes the world

1803
01:05:37,990 --> 01:05:35,039
well that's one of the most frightening

1804
01:05:41,349 --> 01:05:39,270
okay you know we can get to that part

1805
01:05:41,910 --> 01:05:41,359
later a distinction that's important for

1806
01:05:43,430 --> 01:05:41,920
the audience

1807
01:05:45,349 --> 01:05:43,440
it was important and enlightening for me

1808
01:05:47,670 --> 01:05:45,359
was between

1809
01:05:50,390 --> 01:05:47,680
vissen and kennen i believe they're

1810
01:05:52,230 --> 01:05:50,400
german words about knowledge yes do you

1811
01:05:55,510 --> 01:05:52,240
mind expanding

1812
01:05:57,910 --> 01:05:55,520
yes or if you prefer and

1813
01:06:00,710 --> 01:05:57,920
connect in french and the simple way of

1814
01:06:03,829 --> 01:06:00,720
saying it is that

1815
01:06:04,470 --> 01:06:03,839
is knowing that something is the case

1816
01:06:07,829 --> 01:06:04,480
whereas

1817
01:06:10,870 --> 01:06:07,839
connector cannon is knowing something

1818
01:06:13,510 --> 01:06:10,880
direct so i know that

1819
01:06:14,390 --> 01:06:13,520
paris is the capital of france i know

1820
01:06:16,230 --> 01:06:14,400
paris

1821
01:06:18,150 --> 01:06:16,240
because of the times i've spent there

1822
01:06:21,190 --> 01:06:18,160
and what they've meant to me

1823
01:06:23,430 --> 01:06:21,200
you know i know that um

1824
01:06:25,829 --> 01:06:23,440
you know the the the tree in my garden

1825
01:06:29,029 --> 01:06:25,839
is of a certain species and a certain

1826
01:06:29,349 --> 01:06:29,039
um height and so forth but i only know

1827
01:06:35,670 --> 01:06:29,359
it

1828
01:06:37,430 --> 01:06:35,680
really

1829
01:06:38,789 --> 01:06:37,440
there's a distinction between a kind of

1830
01:06:42,870 --> 01:06:38,799
abstracted

1831
01:06:45,990 --> 01:06:42,880
form of knowing data knowing things

1832
01:06:49,190 --> 01:06:46,000
about things and the knowing of them

1833
01:06:53,270 --> 01:06:50,630
i'll tell you one of the aspects of your

1834
01:06:55,990 --> 01:06:53,280
book that i found unsettling let's say

1835
01:06:57,349 --> 01:06:56,000
i i've had this experience i think i've

1836
01:06:58,470 --> 01:06:57,359
talked about it before on another

1837
01:07:00,390 --> 01:06:58,480
podcast

1838
01:07:02,950 --> 01:07:00,400
perhaps at the bernardo castro if you've

1839
01:07:08,069 --> 01:07:05,910
where it was the middle of the night i

1840
01:07:10,470 --> 01:07:08,079
had woken up from a dream

1841
01:07:11,109 --> 01:07:10,480
and then as i was falling back to sleep

1842
01:07:14,309 --> 01:07:11,119
in this

1843
01:07:17,349 --> 01:07:14,319
hypnagogic state i heard

1844
01:07:18,230 --> 01:07:17,359
my wife say a word i don't know what

1845
01:07:19,510 --> 01:07:18,240
she's i don't know

1846
01:07:21,190 --> 01:07:19,520
i don't i still don't know she said it

1847
01:07:22,630 --> 01:07:21,200
or didn't say but it could have been it

1848
01:07:23,910 --> 01:07:22,640
doesn't actually matter it was like yes

1849
01:07:26,390 --> 01:07:23,920
or okay

1850
01:07:27,510 --> 01:07:26,400
and then i wasn't sure if she had

1851
01:07:30,630 --> 01:07:27,520
actually said it

1852
01:07:32,870 --> 01:07:30,640
and i started to go into a spiral

1853
01:07:35,510 --> 01:07:32,880
of extreme anxiety and i'm not a person

1854
01:07:37,910 --> 01:07:35,520
who's ever had a panic attack in my life

1855
01:07:39,589 --> 01:07:37,920
but then i started to feel like am i

1856
01:07:42,150 --> 01:07:39,599
going crazy

1857
01:07:42,950 --> 01:07:42,160
am i am i hearing voices i don't want to

1858
01:07:44,870 --> 01:07:42,960
hear voices

1859
01:07:46,230 --> 01:07:44,880
oh my gosh and then i started to think

1860
01:07:47,670 --> 01:07:46,240
okay don't hear a voice don't hear voice

1861
01:07:49,109 --> 01:07:47,680
but then i was thinking about freudian

1862
01:07:50,470 --> 01:07:49,119
repression am i now repressing a voice

1863
01:07:52,390 --> 01:07:50,480
that will come back even harder later

1864
01:07:53,990 --> 01:07:52,400
oh no so should i move toward a voice

1865
01:07:55,589 --> 01:07:54,000
what would what if the voice tells me to

1866
01:07:55,990 --> 01:07:55,599
kill myself i'm not suicidal i don't

1867
01:07:57,670 --> 01:07:56,000
hate my

1868
01:07:59,029 --> 01:07:57,680
life not in the least what if it tells

1869
01:08:01,670 --> 01:07:59,039
me to harm someone else

1870
01:08:02,950 --> 01:08:01,680
and and then i i had to wake my wife up

1871
01:08:05,829 --> 01:08:02,960
and tell her

1872
01:08:06,549 --> 01:08:05,839
please help me because i'm i'm i need

1873
01:08:08,069 --> 01:08:06,559
help breathing

1874
01:08:09,910 --> 01:08:08,079
and then so she calmed me through that

1875
01:08:10,470 --> 01:08:09,920
the next day i had a similar panic

1876
01:08:13,910 --> 01:08:10,480
attack

1877
01:08:15,349 --> 01:08:13,920
and then two days later had half of one

1878
01:08:16,550 --> 01:08:15,359
then it just went away i even talked to

1879
01:08:17,990 --> 01:08:16,560
my doctor about this she said you should

1880
01:08:21,430 --> 01:08:18,000
go to psychotherapy to talk

1881
01:08:22,309 --> 01:08:21,440
talk this out but it it ameliorated on

1882
01:08:25,189 --> 01:08:22,319
its own

1883
01:08:26,950 --> 01:08:25,199
then a couple days ago this is fresh but

1884
01:08:28,870 --> 01:08:26,960
this came from your book this is why i

1885
01:08:30,709 --> 01:08:28,880
i love you but then i curse you at the

1886
01:08:32,149 --> 01:08:30,719
same time there's plenty of talk in your

1887
01:08:33,590 --> 01:08:32,159
book about schizophrenia

1888
01:08:36,229 --> 01:08:33,600
and each time that would come up my

1889
01:08:39,349 --> 01:08:36,239
heart would race and i'm hearing myself

1890
01:08:41,030 --> 01:08:39,359
in it where i'm not the type of person

1891
01:08:43,990 --> 01:08:41,040
that as you know if i'm talking to you

1892
01:08:46,390 --> 01:08:44,000
i'm not a a fundamentalist materialist

1893
01:08:48,229 --> 01:08:46,400
who dispenses with the divine and so on

1894
01:08:50,470 --> 01:08:48,239
in fact i'm extremely open to it

1895
01:08:51,990 --> 01:08:50,480
and the eulogisms i get for this channel

1896
01:08:53,349 --> 01:08:52,000
is that i'm extremely

1897
01:08:54,470 --> 01:08:53,359
open and actually trying to understand

1898
01:08:55,349 --> 01:08:54,480
like i'm trying to understand your point

1899
01:08:56,789 --> 01:08:55,359
of view i'm trying to

1900
01:08:58,630 --> 01:08:56,799
morph it with mine i'm trying to

1901
01:08:59,590 --> 01:08:58,640
understand other people's but that's

1902
01:09:01,990 --> 01:08:59,600
extremely

1903
01:09:03,269 --> 01:09:02,000
difficult because it puts me on such

1904
01:09:05,510 --> 01:09:03,279
unstable ground

1905
01:09:07,910 --> 01:09:05,520
that i don't know what's real and then

1906
01:09:09,749 --> 01:09:07,920
i'm constantly questioning what's real

1907
01:09:10,950 --> 01:09:09,759
is this real am i the only one that's

1908
01:09:14,789 --> 01:09:10,960
real my fake

1909
01:09:18,149 --> 01:09:14,799
is are people lying to me and and

1910
01:09:19,829 --> 01:09:18,159
sometimes just when i say it out loud it

1911
01:09:21,110 --> 01:09:19,839
it helps me through it part of it is

1912
01:09:22,470 --> 01:09:21,120
like i'm keeping it in and i don't want

1913
01:09:24,229 --> 01:09:22,480
to scare my spouse i don't want to scare

1914
01:09:25,990 --> 01:09:24,239
someone else

1915
01:09:27,269 --> 01:09:26,000
but i also thought another part is that

1916
01:09:29,030 --> 01:09:27,279
there's no one else that i hear talk

1917
01:09:29,669 --> 01:09:29,040
about this much not no one in the public

1918
01:09:32,550 --> 01:09:29,679
sphere

1919
01:09:34,390 --> 01:09:32,560
and so i thought one time i heard

1920
01:09:35,590 --> 01:09:34,400
peterson was schizophrenic it was turns

1921
01:09:37,749 --> 01:09:35,600
out to be false

1922
01:09:39,189 --> 01:09:37,759
but that actually gave me gave me hope

1923
01:09:40,470 --> 01:09:39,199
because i was like oh my gosh someone

1924
01:09:41,749 --> 01:09:40,480
else is experiencing this

1925
01:09:43,349 --> 01:09:41,759
and then i thought okay kurt why don't

1926
01:09:44,470 --> 01:09:43,359
you talk about it first of all it's

1927
01:09:46,070 --> 01:09:44,480
curative to myself

1928
01:09:48,070 --> 01:09:46,080
second of all someone else might hear it

1929
01:09:51,590 --> 01:09:48,080
and be like okay this is

1930
01:09:53,110 --> 01:09:51,600
i'm not someone who's asinine and and so

1931
01:09:55,430 --> 01:09:53,120
maybe someone else who's somewhat normal

1932
01:09:56,470 --> 01:09:55,440
is going through this castrop said kurt

1933
01:09:57,990 --> 01:09:56,480
don't worry

1934
01:09:59,669 --> 01:09:58,000
this is part of the spiritual journey

1935
01:10:00,950 --> 01:09:59,679
when you question consciousness and you

1936
01:10:02,149 --> 01:10:00,960
involve yourself in these subjects this

1937
01:10:04,709 --> 01:10:02,159
will happen

1938
01:10:05,990 --> 01:10:04,719
but either way what you said which is

1939
01:10:07,750 --> 01:10:06,000
that you view the world more and more

1940
01:10:09,430 --> 01:10:07,760
mechanistically that's the left brain

1941
01:10:10,550 --> 01:10:09,440
now that's my entire life up until maybe

1942
01:10:12,390 --> 01:10:10,560
a few years ago

1943
01:10:13,910 --> 01:10:12,400
because i'm trained as a physicist a

1944
01:10:17,430 --> 01:10:13,920
scientist

1945
01:10:19,030 --> 01:10:17,440
and that and that you're extremely

1946
01:10:20,790 --> 01:10:19,040
speaking to yourself over and over and

1947
01:10:22,709 --> 01:10:20,800
over and i feel like that's what i do

1948
01:10:24,229 --> 01:10:22,719
and i've estrude music too

1949
01:10:26,229 --> 01:10:24,239
for the past 12 years i haven't listened

1950
01:10:27,270 --> 01:10:26,239
to music because i just find it to be a

1951
01:10:28,870 --> 01:10:27,280
time waster

1952
01:10:31,830 --> 01:10:28,880
and i'm wondering how much have i hurt

1953
01:10:34,149 --> 01:10:31,840
myself by doing so

1954
01:10:35,910 --> 01:10:34,159
i wanted to say this to you because well

1955
01:10:37,510 --> 01:10:35,920
first i just want to hear your thoughts

1956
01:10:42,830 --> 01:10:37,520
and then you can also relate it to the

1957
01:10:46,229 --> 01:10:45,510
well um i think it's not unusual for

1958
01:10:49,430 --> 01:10:46,239
people to

1959
01:10:53,669 --> 01:10:49,440
to have these experiences and

1960
01:10:57,270 --> 01:10:53,679
people who think a lot ponder a lot

1961
01:11:00,870 --> 01:10:57,280
philosophize a lot conceptualize a lot

1962
01:11:01,910 --> 01:11:00,880
do come to this crisis of doubt if you

1963
01:11:04,229 --> 01:11:01,920
like and it's

1964
01:11:06,310 --> 01:11:04,239
i mean the first great exponent of this

1965
01:11:10,310 --> 01:11:06,320
was descartes

1966
01:11:16,950 --> 01:11:13,830
for his age he lived a remarkably

1967
01:11:19,350 --> 01:11:16,960
ungrounded kind of existence what i mean

1968
01:11:22,470 --> 01:11:19,360
is that most people then still

1969
01:11:25,590 --> 01:11:22,480
lived a more rooted embodied existence

1970
01:11:29,669 --> 01:11:28,229
by his personality as much as anything

1971
01:11:32,470 --> 01:11:29,679
was inclined

1972
01:11:35,830 --> 01:11:32,480
to i think he had a schizoid temperament

1973
01:11:40,550 --> 01:11:37,510
and why this is important is that

1974
01:11:43,430 --> 01:11:40,560
there's a wonderful book which i

1975
01:11:43,830 --> 01:11:43,440
often mentioned and then we'll mention

1976
01:11:47,110 --> 01:11:43,840
again

1977
01:11:47,750 --> 01:11:47,120
by louis sass a psychologist at rutgers

1978
01:11:49,750 --> 01:11:47,760
called

1979
01:11:50,870 --> 01:11:49,760
madness and modernism and it is a

1980
01:11:54,070 --> 01:11:50,880
fascinating

1981
01:11:56,310 --> 01:11:54,080
work and

1982
01:11:58,870 --> 01:11:56,320
it was completely another of these sort

1983
01:12:01,270 --> 01:11:58,880
of eureka moments for me when i read it

1984
01:12:02,630 --> 01:12:01,280
because he drew so many parallels

1985
01:12:05,669 --> 01:12:02,640
between schizophrenia

1986
01:12:08,709 --> 01:12:05,679
and modern culture

1987
01:12:09,510 --> 01:12:08,719
i mean even including high culture and

1988
01:12:12,950 --> 01:12:09,520
he drew

1989
01:12:13,669 --> 01:12:12,960
25 or 30 parallels that are clear to

1990
01:12:15,830 --> 01:12:13,679
anyone

1991
01:12:17,910 --> 01:12:15,840
like him or me who has treated many

1992
01:12:21,830 --> 01:12:17,920
patients with schizophrenia

1993
01:12:26,070 --> 01:12:21,840
between the way they encounter things

1994
01:12:27,830 --> 01:12:26,080
experience them and aspects of modernity

1995
01:12:29,669 --> 01:12:27,840
and this comes together for me in the

1996
01:12:30,790 --> 01:12:29,679
fact that the left hemisphere is in a

1997
01:12:33,430 --> 01:12:30,800
way ungrounded

1998
01:12:35,189 --> 01:12:33,440
it has taken things taken them out of

1999
01:12:37,189 --> 01:12:35,199
context

2000
01:12:38,550 --> 01:12:37,199
taking them out of the lived experience

2001
01:12:40,870 --> 01:12:38,560
of the body

2002
01:12:41,750 --> 01:12:40,880
just detached them from what they mean

2003
01:12:43,270 --> 01:12:41,760
to us

2004
01:12:44,790 --> 01:12:43,280
and then said i don't know what this

2005
01:12:47,110 --> 01:12:44,800
means because

2006
01:12:48,709 --> 01:12:47,120
as it were having taken it out ripped it

2007
01:12:49,590 --> 01:12:48,719
out of the context it would give it

2008
01:12:53,350 --> 01:12:49,600
meaning

2009
01:12:54,390 --> 01:12:53,360
induces a sort of what's real what isn't

2010
01:12:56,310 --> 01:12:54,400
real

2011
01:12:58,390 --> 01:12:56,320
now only people who live the sort of

2012
01:13:01,750 --> 01:12:58,400
very strange life that we do

2013
01:13:03,430 --> 01:13:01,760
are likely to be tormented by this

2014
01:13:05,510 --> 01:13:03,440
because they don't see consciousness

2015
01:13:08,310 --> 01:13:05,520
there's something in here

2016
01:13:10,149 --> 01:13:08,320
and a reality that's just out there we

2017
01:13:12,229 --> 01:13:10,159
come back to something

2018
01:13:15,030 --> 01:13:12,239
we talked about a little earlier and

2019
01:13:18,070 --> 01:13:15,040
could talk about a lot more

2020
01:13:20,070 --> 01:13:18,080
which is how are you see two things

2021
01:13:23,189 --> 01:13:20,080
related co-creating it's neither that

2022
01:13:25,590 --> 01:13:23,199
there's just an in here and an out there

2023
01:13:26,550 --> 01:13:25,600
nor that it's all made up or it's you

2024
01:13:29,990 --> 01:13:26,560
know

2025
01:13:33,350 --> 01:13:30,000
so it's a it's a connection

2026
01:13:37,830 --> 01:13:33,360
we are beings that can

2027
01:13:41,430 --> 01:13:37,840
attend to the world that is our essence

2028
01:13:44,630 --> 01:13:41,440
and as louis lavelle of 20th century

2029
01:13:46,470 --> 01:13:44,640
philosopher said attention is love love

2030
01:13:47,030 --> 01:13:46,480
is a pure attention to the existence of

2031
01:13:49,990 --> 01:13:47,040
whatever

2032
01:13:51,030 --> 01:13:50,000
is other another person another thing

2033
01:13:54,149 --> 01:13:51,040
and i think that that

2034
01:13:55,350 --> 01:13:54,159
is how we relate to the world that it is

2035
01:14:03,189 --> 01:13:55,360
not

2036
01:14:06,149 --> 01:14:03,199
figure it out as if it were an odd thing

2037
01:14:06,709 --> 01:14:06,159
that had dropped in our past you know um

2038
01:14:10,950 --> 01:14:06,719
paley

2039
01:14:13,189 --> 01:14:10,960
in his um deism thought that

2040
01:14:14,790 --> 01:14:13,199
it gave the image that the universe was

2041
01:14:18,149 --> 01:14:14,800
like a watch that some

2042
01:14:20,950 --> 01:14:18,159
sorry paley an 18th century bishop

2043
01:14:21,910 --> 01:14:20,960
yes yes thomas paley i think he was um

2044
01:14:24,870 --> 01:14:21,920
said that

2045
01:14:25,350 --> 01:14:24,880
um you know imagine the world it's like

2046
01:14:40,070 --> 01:14:25,360
a

2047
01:14:43,030 --> 01:14:40,080
himself

2048
01:14:45,110 --> 01:14:43,040
a paleous without god because he just

2049
01:14:47,350 --> 01:14:45,120
like paley thinks there is a mechanism

2050
01:14:49,189 --> 01:14:47,360
here that is working itself out

2051
01:14:51,110 --> 01:14:49,199
he just doesn't think it's god he thinks

2052
01:14:51,590 --> 01:14:51,120
it's genetics that there is something as

2053
01:14:54,709 --> 01:14:51,600
it were

2054
01:14:56,950 --> 01:14:54,719
in a gene the robot that

2055
01:14:58,149 --> 01:14:56,960
controls et cetera these images of

2056
01:14:59,830 --> 01:14:58,159
control

2057
01:15:01,590 --> 01:14:59,840
are there in him as they would be in the

2058
01:15:04,310 --> 01:15:01,600
idea of a deistic god

2059
01:15:05,669 --> 01:15:04,320
i what i mean by a deity god is a an

2060
01:15:07,590 --> 01:15:05,679
engineering god

2061
01:15:09,430 --> 01:15:07,600
an engineer who is separate from

2062
01:15:11,590 --> 01:15:09,440
creation winds it up and

2063
01:15:13,350 --> 01:15:11,600
occasionally tinkers with it whereas i

2064
01:15:14,310 --> 01:15:13,360
believe whatever is divine is in the

2065
01:15:16,709 --> 01:15:14,320
fabric

2066
01:15:18,709 --> 01:15:16,719
of the world and is not known not

2067
01:15:19,110 --> 01:15:18,719
certainly even to whatever that divinity

2068
01:15:22,229 --> 01:15:19,120
is

2069
01:15:25,110 --> 01:15:22,239
it's a process of true creation sort of

2070
01:15:27,590 --> 01:15:25,120
exhilaration of that that carries the

2071
01:15:28,550 --> 01:15:27,600
whole process of creation of a creative

2072
01:15:32,070 --> 01:15:28,560
cosmos

2073
01:15:34,229 --> 01:15:32,080
anyway i'm i'm probably not making sense

2074
01:15:35,510 --> 01:15:34,239
it's so hard to convey these things

2075
01:15:37,189 --> 01:15:35,520
briefly but

2076
01:15:38,870 --> 01:15:37,199
shelling in the 18th century was one of

2077
01:15:42,310 --> 01:15:38,880
my favorite um

2078
01:15:44,870 --> 01:15:42,320
philosophers was able to express this

2079
01:15:46,149 --> 01:15:44,880
not not very easy german i have to agree

2080
01:15:47,430 --> 01:15:46,159
but this is at the core of his

2081
01:15:50,229 --> 01:15:47,440
perception that

2082
01:15:50,790 --> 01:15:50,239
the inner and the outer as is often said

2083
01:15:53,189 --> 01:15:50,800
in

2084
01:15:55,510 --> 01:15:53,199
many non-western cultures they are

2085
01:15:57,669 --> 01:15:55,520
distinct but they're not separate

2086
01:15:59,510 --> 01:15:57,679
and that's a very important point that

2087
01:16:00,630 --> 01:15:59,520
it comes back again to the business of

2088
01:16:05,110 --> 01:16:00,640
not being lost

2089
01:16:08,310 --> 01:16:05,120
in a context you're distinct

2090
01:16:11,830 --> 01:16:08,320
from another person but you're not

2091
01:16:12,630 --> 01:16:11,840
separate from them or sort of divided

2092
01:16:14,550 --> 01:16:12,640
from them

2093
01:16:16,630 --> 01:16:14,560
you're connected to them but you're

2094
01:16:18,310 --> 01:16:16,640
still distinct

2095
01:16:20,630 --> 01:16:18,320
and i sort of think of the world as

2096
01:16:23,990 --> 01:16:20,640
being seamless but with

2097
01:16:27,189 --> 01:16:24,000
you can go seamlessly from

2098
01:16:29,590 --> 01:16:27,199
um red to green without even knowing

2099
01:16:32,070 --> 01:16:29,600
that this has happened

2100
01:16:34,149 --> 01:16:32,080
you know in a three or four minute film

2101
01:16:35,669 --> 01:16:34,159
the color can change nobody notices the

2102
01:16:36,470 --> 01:16:35,679
color changing but it's changed

2103
01:16:39,189 --> 01:16:36,480
completely

2104
01:16:40,149 --> 01:16:39,199
so it's possible to move along a

2105
01:16:42,709 --> 01:16:40,159
continuum and

2106
01:16:44,950 --> 01:16:42,719
and the spectrum of colors is an example

2107
01:16:46,950 --> 01:16:44,960
of something that is not a concatenation

2108
01:16:49,510 --> 01:16:46,960
it's not lots of little separate colors

2109
01:16:52,550 --> 01:16:49,520
it is simply a spectrum

2110
01:16:54,790 --> 01:16:52,560
that can be moved along in such a way

2111
01:16:58,070 --> 01:16:54,800
that you can go from something very

2112
01:16:59,510 --> 01:16:58,080
distinct to something else distinct but

2113
01:17:00,790 --> 01:16:59,520
they're never been separate they've

2114
01:17:02,950 --> 01:17:00,800
never been

2115
01:17:04,709 --> 01:17:02,960
cut off from one another they they're

2116
01:17:07,669 --> 01:17:04,719
part of the same

2117
01:17:09,590 --> 01:17:07,679
whole and i think that a number of

2118
01:17:13,110 --> 01:17:09,600
physicists that i've

2119
01:17:17,030 --> 01:17:13,120
read in my attempts to understand modern

2120
01:17:18,310 --> 01:17:17,040
um well quantum field theory actually is

2121
01:17:20,630 --> 01:17:18,320
the theory that

2122
01:17:22,630 --> 01:17:20,640
i find most congenial to my philosophy

2123
01:17:22,950 --> 01:17:22,640
and seems to be being espoused by a lot

2124
01:17:26,470 --> 01:17:22,960
of

2125
01:17:28,149 --> 01:17:26,480
physicists but in that case again

2126
01:17:29,990 --> 01:17:28,159
things can be distinct but not

2127
01:17:32,790 --> 01:17:30,000
ultimately separate they they

2128
01:17:34,709 --> 01:17:32,800
belong to fields which can be more

2129
01:17:38,950 --> 01:17:34,719
concentrated or collapsed in certain

2130
01:17:42,709 --> 01:17:40,310
actually speaking of quantum field

2131
01:17:44,630 --> 01:17:42,719
theory on these

2132
01:17:46,229 --> 01:17:44,640
pages that i have notes for you at the

2133
01:17:47,750 --> 01:17:46,239
back because i thought that we were

2134
01:17:48,870 --> 01:17:47,760
scheduled for two hours earlier by

2135
01:17:51,030 --> 01:17:48,880
accident so i was

2136
01:17:52,630 --> 01:17:51,040
just doing some quantum field problems

2137
01:17:53,189 --> 01:17:52,640
just to get myself more familiar with it

2138
01:17:54,470 --> 01:17:53,199
because i

2139
01:17:56,470 --> 01:17:54,480
i've been out of the game for a little

2140
01:17:58,070 --> 01:17:56,480
while okay

2141
01:18:01,430 --> 01:17:58,080
why is it that you mentioned one day

2142
01:18:04,550 --> 01:18:01,440
you'll be able to explain it to me

2143
01:18:07,990 --> 01:18:04,560
why why is it that non-rhythmic music is

2144
01:18:10,870 --> 01:18:08,000
salutary compared to rhythmic music

2145
01:18:11,990 --> 01:18:10,880
see let me explain my reasoning for this

2146
01:18:12,390 --> 01:18:12,000
well first of all you mentioned it in

2147
01:18:15,990 --> 01:18:12,400
the book

2148
01:18:18,229 --> 01:18:16,000
but second i told you i don't listen to

2149
01:18:22,310 --> 01:18:18,239
music i don't get pleasure for music

2150
01:18:24,630 --> 01:18:22,320
and i i

2151
01:18:26,790 --> 01:18:24,640
i haven't done so for maybe 12 or even

2152
01:18:27,830 --> 01:18:26,800
14 years i play music like i can play

2153
01:18:29,510 --> 01:18:27,840
this and sing

2154
01:18:31,189 --> 01:18:29,520
i like to do that i like to listen to

2155
01:18:32,790 --> 01:18:31,199
eminem occasionally

2156
01:18:35,669 --> 01:18:32,800
but i don't like to listen to music and

2157
01:18:37,270 --> 01:18:35,679
for me it's because i'm so in my head

2158
01:18:39,110 --> 01:18:37,280
i'm such a child of the enlightenment

2159
01:18:41,430 --> 01:18:39,120
let's say that

2160
01:18:42,470 --> 01:18:41,440
i see that as a waste of time and i just

2161
01:18:44,390 --> 01:18:42,480
need to be thinking

2162
01:18:45,669 --> 01:18:44,400
and it came from when i was around 18

2163
01:18:47,910 --> 01:18:45,679
and i was

2164
01:18:49,430 --> 01:18:47,920
on a train and the train ride passed in

2165
01:18:50,550 --> 01:18:49,440
like two minutes when it was a 20-minute

2166
01:18:51,910 --> 01:18:50,560
train ride and it was because i was

2167
01:18:52,470 --> 01:18:51,920
listening to music and i stopped and

2168
01:18:53,910 --> 01:18:52,480
thought

2169
01:18:55,030 --> 01:18:53,920
that's not good because i could have

2170
01:18:55,830 --> 01:18:55,040
been thinking could have been solving

2171
01:18:57,750 --> 01:18:55,840
problems

2172
01:18:59,270 --> 01:18:57,760
so then i'm like from this day forward

2173
01:19:02,149 --> 01:18:59,280
on the train you just think

2174
01:19:02,790 --> 01:19:02,159
think think think think it reminds me of

2175
01:19:07,270 --> 01:19:02,800
the

2176
01:19:09,110 --> 01:19:07,280
i feel like i have inadvertently been

2177
01:19:11,669 --> 01:19:09,120
harming myself and now what i'm doing is

2178
01:19:13,030 --> 01:19:11,679
a slow process of undoing

2179
01:19:14,950 --> 01:19:13,040
and your book is helping but it's also

2180
01:19:15,270 --> 01:19:14,960
unnerving thank you either way you said

2181
01:19:18,950 --> 01:19:15,280
that

2182
01:19:21,830 --> 01:19:18,960
okay listen music these days is rhythmic

2183
01:19:23,110 --> 01:19:21,840
and that's not the best embodiment

2184
01:19:25,270 --> 01:19:23,120
non-rhythmic music is

2185
01:19:26,149 --> 01:19:25,280
so can you explain i don't i don't think

2186
01:19:29,110 --> 01:19:26,159
i said that

2187
01:19:29,910 --> 01:19:29,120
i i really don't um i haven't got

2188
01:19:32,870 --> 01:19:29,920
anything against

2189
01:19:33,830 --> 01:19:32,880
rhythmic music i just said that the most

2190
01:19:37,669 --> 01:19:33,840
powerful

2191
01:19:40,870 --> 01:19:37,679
expressive elements in music include

2192
01:19:41,350 --> 01:19:40,880
melody and harmony and that rhythm is

2193
01:19:45,830 --> 01:19:41,360
only

2194
01:19:46,709 --> 01:19:45,840
that the left hemisphere really

2195
01:19:48,709 --> 01:19:46,719
understands

2196
01:19:50,070 --> 01:19:48,719
especially very basic pounding beats

2197
01:19:53,830 --> 01:19:50,080
that are repetitive and

2198
01:19:55,990 --> 01:19:53,840
mechanical um because even complex beats

2199
01:19:57,430 --> 01:19:56,000
with cross rhythms and syncopations are

2200
01:19:58,630 --> 01:19:57,440
better understood by the right

2201
01:20:01,110 --> 01:19:58,640
atmosphere

2202
01:20:01,990 --> 01:20:01,120
but melody and armor are really very

2203
01:20:03,510 --> 01:20:02,000
much dependent

2204
01:20:05,350 --> 01:20:03,520
for most people non-professional

2205
01:20:08,550 --> 01:20:05,360
musicians dependent on

2206
01:20:09,430 --> 01:20:08,560
the right hemisphere and all i was

2207
01:20:12,229 --> 01:20:09,440
really saying

2208
01:20:13,350 --> 01:20:12,239
is that in our culture i was just

2209
01:20:16,870 --> 01:20:13,360
pointing to the

2210
01:20:19,270 --> 01:20:16,880
101 ways in which we can see

2211
01:20:20,310 --> 01:20:19,280
what i consider to be the the dire

2212
01:20:22,550 --> 01:20:20,320
impact of

2213
01:20:24,550 --> 01:20:22,560
not using or paying attention to what

2214
01:20:25,270 --> 01:20:24,560
our right hemispheres will still tell us

2215
01:20:27,510 --> 01:20:25,280
if we just

2216
01:20:29,590 --> 01:20:27,520
listen to what they're enabling us to

2217
01:20:32,870 --> 01:20:29,600
understand experience and

2218
01:20:35,910 --> 01:20:32,880
live in

2219
01:20:37,750 --> 01:20:35,920
one of those um one of those 101

2220
01:20:39,830 --> 01:20:37,760
things is the way in which music has

2221
01:20:42,950 --> 01:20:39,840
changed interestingly to be

2222
01:20:44,550 --> 01:20:42,960
largely a matter of rhythm and that

2223
01:20:47,350 --> 01:20:44,560
melodies and harmonies are not as

2224
01:20:49,590 --> 01:20:47,360
settled as they they used to be

2225
01:20:50,790 --> 01:20:49,600
and are in many kinds of music but

2226
01:20:51,350 --> 01:20:50,800
there's nothing wrong with rhythm in

2227
01:20:52,629 --> 01:20:51,360
itself

2228
01:20:55,830 --> 01:20:52,639
although there is something very

2229
01:20:59,350 --> 01:20:55,840
important about variation in rhythm

2230
01:21:02,229 --> 01:20:59,360
so certainly in playing

2231
01:21:02,709 --> 01:21:02,239
if you're a great pianist you you

2232
01:21:04,470 --> 01:21:02,719
wouldn't

2233
01:21:06,470 --> 01:21:04,480
play something in the way that a

2234
01:21:09,189 --> 01:21:06,480
computer would play the notes

2235
01:21:10,470 --> 01:21:09,199
with exact same lengths and exact same

2236
01:21:12,229 --> 01:21:10,480
intervals

2237
01:21:13,750 --> 01:21:12,239
um there's something called rubato which

2238
01:21:15,990 --> 01:21:13,760
you may know of which is

2239
01:21:17,669 --> 01:21:16,000
the business of very slight variations

2240
01:21:21,030 --> 01:21:17,679
from outer bar

2241
01:21:24,870 --> 01:21:21,040
in the movement of the music

2242
01:21:27,189 --> 01:21:24,880
um and this is a parallel to the fact

2243
01:21:28,310 --> 01:21:27,199
that living rhythms are always variable

2244
01:21:31,669 --> 01:21:28,320
they're not

2245
01:21:33,910 --> 01:21:31,679
uh mechanical and i was absolutely

2246
01:21:37,110 --> 01:21:33,920
amazed when i was on the

2247
01:21:40,310 --> 01:21:37,120
obstetrics wards um

2248
01:21:43,830 --> 01:21:40,320
when i was a doctor in training

2249
01:21:47,669 --> 01:21:43,840
and just begun that attachment to learn

2250
01:21:48,870 --> 01:21:47,679
that when the fetus the heartbeat the

2251
01:21:52,070 --> 01:21:48,880
fetal heartbeat

2252
01:21:53,030 --> 01:21:52,080
is entirely rhythmical the baby is an

2253
01:21:56,629 --> 01:21:53,040
emergency

2254
01:21:59,590 --> 01:21:56,639
the baby is in danger of dying

2255
01:22:01,189 --> 01:21:59,600
and a healthy fetus has a variable

2256
01:22:03,189 --> 01:22:01,199
heartbeat

2257
01:22:04,229 --> 01:22:03,199
now i mean that's an image to me of many

2258
01:22:07,189 --> 01:22:04,239
other things

2259
01:22:08,709 --> 01:22:07,199
that you know that there is a beauty in

2260
01:22:12,229 --> 01:22:08,719
the slight hesitancies

2261
01:22:14,229 --> 01:22:12,239
in dance in music it's very

2262
01:22:15,750 --> 01:22:14,239
very hard to put your finger on what

2263
01:22:18,470 --> 01:22:15,760
they are and they're

2264
01:22:21,510 --> 01:22:18,480
they're within an overall frame of

2265
01:22:23,750 --> 01:22:21,520
irregularity so the irregularities

2266
01:22:25,110 --> 01:22:23,760
within the overarching frame of

2267
01:22:27,270 --> 01:22:25,120
regularity

2268
01:22:28,550 --> 01:22:27,280
and this comes to something very very

2269
01:22:32,470 --> 01:22:28,560
deep for me

2270
01:22:37,430 --> 01:22:32,480
which is that

2271
01:22:39,750 --> 01:22:37,440
we need togetherness but we also need

2272
01:22:41,110 --> 01:22:39,760
distinctness we need individuality but

2273
01:22:44,790 --> 01:22:41,120
we need

2274
01:22:48,149 --> 01:22:44,800
um the whole but the important thing is

2275
01:22:50,790 --> 01:22:48,159
we should be under the embrace of

2276
01:22:51,590 --> 01:22:50,800
force for togetherness not the force for

2277
01:22:54,390 --> 01:22:51,600
separation

2278
01:22:55,270 --> 01:22:54,400
so in brief we need the force for

2279
01:22:57,510 --> 01:22:55,280
division

2280
01:22:58,629 --> 01:22:57,520
and we need the force for union we need

2281
01:23:02,790 --> 01:22:58,639
both

2282
01:23:05,910 --> 01:23:02,800
unified

2283
01:23:06,709 --> 01:23:05,920
not divided this reminds me of longing

2284
01:23:08,229 --> 01:23:06,719
versus want

2285
01:23:10,310 --> 01:23:08,239
in your book you mentioned longing is a

2286
01:23:13,110 --> 01:23:10,320
unification a stretching out to

2287
01:23:14,390 --> 01:23:13,120
but want is a desire which puts you it

2288
01:23:15,590 --> 01:23:14,400
separate from

2289
01:23:17,510 --> 01:23:15,600
yes is there a connection or is that

2290
01:23:20,629 --> 01:23:17,520
just in my head

2291
01:23:22,390 --> 01:23:20,639
no i'm delighted that you made that

2292
01:23:23,110 --> 01:23:22,400
connection i think it's it's exactly

2293
01:23:25,590 --> 01:23:23,120
right

2294
01:23:26,790 --> 01:23:25,600
from from my point of view and in fact

2295
01:23:29,910 --> 01:23:26,800
there is um

2296
01:23:31,669 --> 01:23:29,920
if people are interested if you if you

2297
01:23:32,870 --> 01:23:31,679
google mcgilfrid's longing and one thing

2298
01:23:36,870 --> 01:23:32,880
i think it's called

2299
01:23:39,189 --> 01:23:36,880
i gave an hour-long talk um in london

2300
01:23:40,950 --> 01:23:39,199
about four years ago on the distinction

2301
01:23:43,990 --> 01:23:40,960
between longing and wanting

2302
01:23:44,470 --> 01:23:44,000
and nowadays it seems to me that we have

2303
01:23:46,870 --> 01:23:44,480
lost

2304
01:23:48,310 --> 01:23:46,880
the sense of a longing for something to

2305
01:23:50,709 --> 01:23:48,320
which we already feel

2306
01:23:52,149 --> 01:23:50,719
an attraction and which is calling to us

2307
01:23:55,350 --> 01:23:52,159
and which we are

2308
01:23:58,629 --> 01:23:55,360
we are sort of uh rather

2309
01:24:00,310 --> 01:23:58,639
blind way trying to to reach towards but

2310
01:24:02,310 --> 01:24:00,320
constant reaching out to

2311
01:24:03,350 --> 01:24:02,320
instead we have once you know i don't

2312
01:24:05,189 --> 01:24:03,360
that that

2313
01:24:07,030 --> 01:24:05,199
you get to put it in your little bag of

2314
01:24:10,070 --> 01:24:07,040
stuff what do you want in a relationship

2315
01:24:13,910 --> 01:24:12,709
well i think these words all have their

2316
01:24:14,790 --> 01:24:13,920
meaning and they all have their value

2317
01:24:17,030 --> 01:24:14,800
and they they will

2318
01:24:18,629 --> 01:24:17,040
have their place but but no i think

2319
01:24:19,110 --> 01:24:18,639
there was a very i mean it's fascinating

2320
01:24:21,270 --> 01:24:19,120
the word

2321
01:24:23,750 --> 01:24:21,280
long literally comes from an anglo-saxon

2322
01:24:26,629 --> 01:24:23,760
rude langion which means to stretch out

2323
01:24:28,149 --> 01:24:26,639
something that is gone from you but

2324
01:24:29,669 --> 01:24:28,159
which you are still connected you want

2325
01:24:32,870 --> 01:24:29,679
to reconnect with

2326
01:24:36,390 --> 01:24:34,950
sisterly and diastole if you like which

2327
01:24:38,310 --> 01:24:36,400
are from the heartbeat you know the

2328
01:24:39,750 --> 01:24:38,320
sisterly followed by the diastole the

2329
01:24:41,750 --> 01:24:39,760
lup followed by the top

2330
01:24:42,790 --> 01:24:41,760
there's this kind of contraction and

2331
01:24:44,950 --> 01:24:42,800
release is

2332
01:24:46,030 --> 01:24:44,960
the way in which movement happens in

2333
01:24:49,350 --> 01:24:46,040
nature by

2334
01:24:50,709 --> 01:24:49,360
alternations of that kind produce

2335
01:24:51,750 --> 01:24:50,719
something that is just a kind of

2336
01:24:54,070 --> 01:24:51,760
addition

2337
01:24:56,229 --> 01:24:54,080
of the two in some neutral way or a or

2338
01:24:58,629 --> 01:24:56,239
perhaps a compromise of 50 50.

2339
01:24:59,590 --> 01:24:58,639
it produces something completely new

2340
01:25:01,830 --> 01:24:59,600
this is the point

2341
01:25:04,149 --> 01:25:01,840
it is the creation the creativity of

2342
01:25:07,189 --> 01:25:04,159
your life of this world of the cosmos

2343
01:25:10,950 --> 01:25:07,199
depends on our ability to see that

2344
01:25:13,030 --> 01:25:10,960
opposites need to be held together

2345
01:25:15,350 --> 01:25:13,040
the world is not as simple as we think

2346
01:25:17,510 --> 01:25:15,360
it is things that we think are good

2347
01:25:18,950 --> 01:25:17,520
also can seem kill something that is bad

2348
01:25:20,470 --> 01:25:18,960
the things that we think are bad also

2349
01:25:22,229 --> 01:25:20,480
conceal something that is good

2350
01:25:24,629 --> 01:25:22,239
and we need to finesse these things in

2351
01:25:27,110 --> 01:25:24,639
order to find our way in the world

2352
01:25:28,709 --> 01:25:27,120
what i mean by the opposition bringing

2353
01:25:31,430 --> 01:25:28,719
something new into being

2354
01:25:33,910 --> 01:25:31,440
is the tension of a string of a guitar

2355
01:25:36,550 --> 01:25:33,920
or a violin

2356
01:25:38,149 --> 01:25:36,560
it's important for that that it's pulled

2357
01:25:39,750 --> 01:25:38,159
in two directions at once

2358
01:25:41,669 --> 01:25:39,760
in fact if it weren't pulled in two

2359
01:25:43,430 --> 01:25:41,679
directions at once it wouldn't

2360
01:25:44,950 --> 01:25:43,440
work you might say well that's a waste

2361
01:25:46,390 --> 01:25:44,960
of energy why pull things in two

2362
01:25:47,750 --> 01:25:46,400
directions at once why not come to an

2363
01:25:49,430 --> 01:25:47,760
agreement and a compromise

2364
01:25:50,870 --> 01:25:49,440
and just stop pulling well then you

2365
01:25:52,790 --> 01:25:50,880
don't have a string anymore you don't

2366
01:25:56,070 --> 01:25:52,800
have a violin anymore you don't have any

2367
01:26:00,149 --> 01:25:57,830
well something comes out of that

2368
01:26:01,750 --> 01:26:00,159
conflict which is very important sorry

2369
01:26:03,590 --> 01:26:01,760
to be fair in string theory you can't

2370
01:26:04,870 --> 01:26:03,600
have closed loop strings and you just

2371
01:26:05,750 --> 01:26:04,880
give them attention it's just like a

2372
01:26:08,870 --> 01:26:05,760
variable you vary

2373
01:26:11,110 --> 01:26:08,880
oh i i really wasn't um uh pretending to

2374
01:26:14,310 --> 01:26:11,120
talk about string seriously

2375
01:26:16,870 --> 01:26:14,320
you don't understand it i know okay

2376
01:26:17,669 --> 01:26:16,880
when you say that you're like we need to

2377
01:26:20,310 --> 01:26:17,679
we're separate

2378
01:26:21,590 --> 01:26:20,320
but we're also together and this impulse

2379
01:26:23,350 --> 01:26:21,600
to be separated

2380
01:26:24,709 --> 01:26:23,360
should be there and the impulse to be

2381
01:26:26,870 --> 01:26:24,719
together should be there we should

2382
01:26:28,070 --> 01:26:26,880
be guided by the together one more so

2383
01:26:31,830 --> 01:26:28,080
than the separate one

2384
01:26:35,270 --> 01:26:31,840
that's the individuality okay that to me

2385
01:26:36,390 --> 01:26:35,280
it reminds me is i i'm not meaning this

2386
01:26:38,709 --> 01:26:36,400
by the way can i just say i'm not

2387
01:26:41,189 --> 01:26:38,719
meaning this principally or only

2388
01:26:43,270 --> 01:26:41,199
uh to do with social relations i'm

2389
01:26:45,910 --> 01:26:43,280
thinking of it as

2390
01:26:48,149 --> 01:26:45,920
a metaphysical structural feature of

2391
01:26:49,510 --> 01:26:48,159
reality that it has this structure

2392
01:26:51,910 --> 01:26:49,520
of the need for difference and

2393
01:26:52,550 --> 01:26:51,920
togetherness not just we as human beings

2394
01:26:54,390 --> 01:26:52,560
have it

2395
01:26:55,990 --> 01:26:54,400
okay well now you gave me another idea

2396
01:26:57,990 --> 01:26:56,000
so let's say i'm walking along

2397
01:26:59,830 --> 01:26:58,000
the beach yeah and i'm looking at the

2398
01:27:02,470 --> 01:26:59,840
waves and the sand and the sun

2399
01:27:03,270 --> 01:27:02,480
am i supposed to feel or is it good for

2400
01:27:05,750 --> 01:27:03,280
me to feel

2401
01:27:07,590 --> 01:27:05,760
connected to it and feel as if the waves

2402
01:27:08,950 --> 01:27:07,600
are alive in some manner and i'm

2403
01:27:12,070 --> 01:27:08,960
speaking to the rocks

2404
01:27:15,270 --> 01:27:12,080
because in the dead end left hemispheric

2405
01:27:17,189 --> 01:27:15,280
view i see them or one would see them as

2406
01:27:18,390 --> 01:27:17,199
impressions picturesque impressions upon

2407
01:27:21,350 --> 01:27:18,400
my slate

2408
01:27:22,310 --> 01:27:21,360
of sense so sense data pressed upon me

2409
01:27:23,669 --> 01:27:22,320
but then i can

2410
01:27:26,149 --> 01:27:23,679
and then i know that that's associated

2411
01:27:28,709 --> 01:27:26,159
with schizophrenias schizophrenic

2412
01:27:30,229 --> 01:27:28,719
ideation in its extreme okay but then in

2413
01:27:32,390 --> 01:27:30,239
the other extreme i could see

2414
01:27:34,149 --> 01:27:32,400
someone going and talking to the rocks

2415
01:27:36,070 --> 01:27:34,159
and and holding them up and kissing them

2416
01:27:38,229 --> 01:27:36,080
as that its own form of

2417
01:27:39,270 --> 01:27:38,239
psychosis but i'm not sure i don't know

2418
01:27:40,229 --> 01:27:39,280
if that's actually associated with

2419
01:27:42,070 --> 01:27:40,239
schizophrenic

2420
01:27:43,830 --> 01:27:42,080
thought either way i want to hear so

2421
01:27:47,110 --> 01:27:43,840
which one should i do should i

2422
01:27:49,910 --> 01:27:47,120
stand back passively of you or should i

2423
01:27:50,709 --> 01:27:49,920
treat it somehow emulated in my brain as

2424
01:27:53,510 --> 01:27:50,719
this is living

2425
01:27:53,910 --> 01:27:53,520
be curt be in this world as if you're

2426
01:27:56,229 --> 01:27:53,920
living

2427
01:27:58,470 --> 01:27:56,239
engaging with it but these are not just

2428
01:28:02,149 --> 01:27:58,480
plastic objects that of wood

2429
01:28:03,430 --> 01:28:02,159
they're they're also not beings let's

2430
01:28:04,950 --> 01:28:03,440
say but they're

2431
01:28:07,030 --> 01:28:04,960
there's something to them there's some

2432
01:28:09,350 --> 01:28:07,040
life that they have so how

2433
01:28:11,110 --> 01:28:09,360
how does one dance that web because i

2434
01:28:13,270 --> 01:28:11,120
can see

2435
01:28:14,709 --> 01:28:13,280
inane craziness on both ends of the

2436
01:28:16,790 --> 01:28:14,719
spectrum

2437
01:28:18,709 --> 01:28:16,800
but does it have to be one or the other

2438
01:28:21,750 --> 01:28:18,719
in keeping with what i've been saying

2439
01:28:23,830 --> 01:28:21,760
isn't it an error to go to one extreme

2440
01:28:25,910 --> 01:28:23,840
of either of these not because the

2441
01:28:27,430 --> 01:28:25,920
reality exists in a compromise

2442
01:28:30,149 --> 01:28:27,440
but because there is a wholly different

2443
01:28:32,229 --> 01:28:30,159
position that is only found when you

2444
01:28:35,350 --> 01:28:32,239
reconcile the two opposites

2445
01:28:35,750 --> 01:28:35,360
that is my point um and it's imaged in

2446
01:28:40,149 --> 01:28:35,760
that

2447
01:28:44,149 --> 01:28:40,159
taut string um but

2448
01:28:45,430 --> 01:28:44,159
i think it's a very unusual view we have

2449
01:28:47,590 --> 01:28:45,440
of the world

2450
01:28:48,950 --> 01:28:47,600
that we are separate from it and it is

2451
01:28:51,110 --> 01:28:48,960
dead

2452
01:28:53,750 --> 01:28:51,120
uh and that any life in it is something

2453
01:28:56,310 --> 01:28:53,760
we attribute to it

2454
01:28:56,950 --> 01:28:56,320
i argue and it's too long an argument to

2455
01:29:00,229 --> 01:28:56,960
do now

2456
01:29:03,750 --> 01:29:00,239
i even argue that inanimacy

2457
01:29:05,510 --> 01:29:03,760
is if you like the ultimate limit case

2458
01:29:07,830 --> 01:29:05,520
of animacy

2459
01:29:09,669 --> 01:29:07,840
not that animacy is some weird thing

2460
01:29:12,950 --> 01:29:09,679
that popped into the cosmos

2461
01:29:15,910 --> 01:29:12,960
i think animacy is of the essence

2462
01:29:18,470 --> 01:29:15,920
of a conscious universe in different

2463
01:29:20,870 --> 01:29:18,480
ways in different degrees

2464
01:29:21,830 --> 01:29:20,880
as an animosity or are the union animals

2465
01:29:25,750 --> 01:29:21,840
no no as

2466
01:29:28,950 --> 01:29:25,760
as as in things being animated so

2467
01:29:31,910 --> 01:29:28,960
obviously yes um but

2468
01:29:32,870 --> 01:29:31,920
we don't have to to go to to to that

2469
01:29:34,950 --> 01:29:32,880
that extr

2470
01:29:36,629 --> 01:29:34,960
well not an extreme but but to that

2471
01:29:39,030 --> 01:29:36,639
length if you like

2472
01:29:40,390 --> 01:29:39,040
um we i wouldn't have time to justify

2473
01:29:41,030 --> 01:29:40,400
that position but i think i do in my

2474
01:29:43,669 --> 01:29:41,040
book

2475
01:29:45,270 --> 01:29:43,679
but in any case most people at most

2476
01:29:48,629 --> 01:29:45,280
times in the world

2477
01:29:50,470 --> 01:29:48,639
have not failed to make a proper

2478
01:29:53,590 --> 01:29:50,480
scientific assessment and

2479
01:29:54,790 --> 01:29:53,600
come up with a theory that things around

2480
01:29:57,189 --> 01:29:54,800
them are alive

2481
01:29:58,390 --> 01:29:57,199
they know they're alive because they

2482
01:30:01,830 --> 01:29:58,400
actually experience

2483
01:30:04,229 --> 01:30:01,840
that and we have told ourselves that we

2484
01:30:06,149 --> 01:30:04,239
can't be experiencing that because

2485
01:30:07,430 --> 01:30:06,159
it's just not wrong isn't it i mean an

2486
01:30:10,149 --> 01:30:07,440
age of science

2487
01:30:11,669 --> 01:30:10,159
but what do we know about that actually

2488
01:30:12,229 --> 01:30:11,679
science is not dealing with that

2489
01:30:15,110 --> 01:30:12,239
question

2490
01:30:17,110 --> 01:30:15,120
science is not able to talk about

2491
01:30:20,950 --> 01:30:17,120
whether there is

2492
01:30:22,229 --> 01:30:20,960
um something that has consciousness or

2493
01:30:25,430 --> 01:30:22,239
animacy

2494
01:30:29,910 --> 01:30:25,440
in the world outside of our own

2495
01:30:35,590 --> 01:30:33,110
i don't think that one needs to either

2496
01:30:38,149 --> 01:30:35,600
tell oneself one's wrong when one feels

2497
01:30:40,709 --> 01:30:38,159
a sense of connectedness

2498
01:30:41,590 --> 01:30:40,719
or think that being properly connected

2499
01:30:43,430 --> 01:30:41,600
means

2500
01:30:45,669 --> 01:30:43,440
you're being being swallowed up and you

2501
01:30:47,350 --> 01:30:45,679
don't you know love those waves so much

2502
01:30:48,229 --> 01:30:47,360
that you go into a rough scene and get

2503
01:30:51,750 --> 01:30:48,239
drowned so

2504
01:30:53,669 --> 01:30:51,760
you need to keep keep walking this

2505
01:30:56,390 --> 01:30:53,679
balance and it's all about the balance

2506
01:30:57,990 --> 01:30:56,400
or harmony harmony was the greek word

2507
01:30:59,750 --> 01:30:58,000
and it's a word that we've lost because

2508
01:31:01,189 --> 01:30:59,760
i mean our world has so little harmony

2509
01:31:04,470 --> 01:31:01,199
in it

2510
01:31:06,950 --> 01:31:04,480
things that we call harmony are actually

2511
01:31:07,990 --> 01:31:06,960
dictated fiats that things must be like

2512
01:31:10,390 --> 01:31:08,000
this but no

2513
01:31:11,590 --> 01:31:10,400
true harmony is is a kind of thing that

2514
01:31:13,669 --> 01:31:11,600
has to evolve

2515
01:31:15,430 --> 01:31:13,679
between things being fully themselves

2516
01:31:16,149 --> 01:31:15,440
and not pretending to be something

2517
01:31:19,990 --> 01:31:16,159
they're not

2518
01:31:20,390 --> 01:31:20,000
so yeah i think it i think it is a very

2519
01:31:22,950 --> 01:31:20,400
very

2520
01:31:23,430 --> 01:31:22,960
important element i i wrote also an

2521
01:31:25,189 --> 01:31:23,440
article

2522
01:31:27,669 --> 01:31:25,199
for the journal of consciousness studies

2523
01:31:30,149 --> 01:31:27,679
on the question of the self

2524
01:31:32,550 --> 01:31:30,159
because i think there's a confusion you

2525
01:31:37,270 --> 01:31:35,830
the holy person or the wise person has

2526
01:31:40,229 --> 01:31:37,280
no self

2527
01:31:41,350 --> 01:31:40,239
and i think i know what is meant i think

2528
01:31:44,550 --> 01:31:41,360
i can see very clearly

2529
01:31:48,709 --> 01:31:44,560
what has meant not a narrow egotistic

2530
01:31:53,510 --> 01:31:48,719
selfish um fragmentary atomistic

2531
01:31:56,709 --> 01:31:53,520
self of course but at the same time

2532
01:31:59,750 --> 01:31:56,719
by growing in richness and

2533
01:32:02,870 --> 01:31:59,760
thinking and meditating and

2534
01:32:05,350 --> 01:32:02,880
creating and just being you are

2535
01:32:06,550 --> 01:32:05,360
growing a soul you are growing a person

2536
01:32:09,430 --> 01:32:06,560
you are growing

2537
01:32:11,750 --> 01:32:09,440
fulfilling an individual element of the

2538
01:32:13,430 --> 01:32:11,760
cosmos that will never be there again

2539
01:32:15,189 --> 01:32:13,440
and surely to say that that's all

2540
01:32:17,270 --> 01:32:15,199
valueless and the whole

2541
01:32:18,950 --> 01:32:17,280
business of existence is to try and deny

2542
01:32:19,750 --> 01:32:18,960
that and get as far away from it as

2543
01:32:23,430 --> 01:32:19,760
possible

2544
01:32:26,470 --> 01:32:23,440
seems to me a little bit um negative

2545
01:32:29,189 --> 01:32:26,480
because even the buddha you know

2546
01:32:30,950 --> 01:32:29,199
had to sleep had to eat had to go to the

2547
01:32:33,110 --> 01:32:30,960
lavatory and if somebody

2548
01:32:33,990 --> 01:32:33,120
shot the buddha he didn't go well he

2549
01:32:37,110 --> 01:32:34,000
didn't shoot me

2550
01:32:37,590 --> 01:32:37,120
because he did you know every everybody

2551
01:32:40,709 --> 01:32:37,600
has

2552
01:32:42,390 --> 01:32:40,719
their individual self but there's a very

2553
01:32:44,790 --> 01:32:42,400
big difference between what jung

2554
01:32:47,110 --> 01:32:44,800
called the self which is a sort of

2555
01:32:49,189 --> 01:32:47,120
mature thing that you grow into

2556
01:32:50,550 --> 01:32:49,199
and the ego which is this sort of more

2557
01:32:53,189 --> 01:32:50,560
left hemispheric

2558
01:32:53,990 --> 01:32:53,199
sense of the self as the acquirer the

2559
01:32:56,149 --> 01:32:54,000
manipulator

2560
01:32:57,590 --> 01:32:56,159
the one that wields power and that's

2561
01:33:01,270 --> 01:32:57,600
very important again

2562
01:33:05,110 --> 01:33:01,280
in the spiritual philosophies

2563
01:33:06,950 --> 01:33:05,120
of most cultures the renouncing of power

2564
01:33:08,790 --> 01:33:06,960
because power is very much the left

2565
01:33:10,950 --> 01:33:08,800
hemisphere's major tool

2566
01:33:12,229 --> 01:33:10,960
it exists in order to make us powerful

2567
01:33:14,149 --> 01:33:12,239
to get things to grab

2568
01:33:15,510 --> 01:33:14,159
things to get prey to build things to

2569
01:33:17,270 --> 01:33:15,520
make things

2570
01:33:19,110 --> 01:33:17,280
and thinks that we will become happier

2571
01:33:22,149 --> 01:33:19,120
or better in doing so

2572
01:33:24,390 --> 01:33:22,159
although all the evidence is very clear

2573
01:33:26,870 --> 01:33:24,400
we don't become happier or morally about

2574
01:33:28,870 --> 01:33:26,880
a people by doing it

2575
01:33:30,149 --> 01:33:28,880
what you say just makes me think of

2576
01:33:33,110 --> 01:33:30,159
there's quite a few thoughts i'll

2577
01:33:33,910 --> 01:33:33,120
i'll splay out two of them one is okay

2578
01:33:36,070 --> 01:33:33,920
freud said

2579
01:33:37,510 --> 01:33:36,080
or at least freud surmised that his id

2580
01:33:39,510 --> 01:33:37,520
ego and so on would have some

2581
01:33:41,910 --> 01:33:39,520
morphological equivalent in the brain

2582
01:33:43,189 --> 01:33:41,920
if neuroscience would just progress now

2583
01:33:44,870 --> 01:33:43,199
it sounds like what you're saying is

2584
01:33:46,870 --> 01:33:44,880
to some degree that's true because the

2585
01:33:47,910 --> 01:33:46,880
left hemisphere is associated with the

2586
01:33:52,229 --> 01:33:47,920
ego

2587
01:33:56,149 --> 01:33:54,550
i don't really want to to say yes to

2588
01:33:59,189 --> 01:33:56,159
that or no to it because

2589
01:34:03,110 --> 01:33:59,199
in some senses yes in some senses no it

2590
01:34:05,270 --> 01:34:03,120
it depends too much what you mean by ego

2591
01:34:07,030 --> 01:34:05,280
and some aspects of the superego might

2592
01:34:08,790 --> 01:34:07,040
be better identified with the frontal

2593
01:34:10,629 --> 01:34:08,800
lobes rather than with either right or

2594
01:34:11,990 --> 01:34:10,639
left hemisphere

2595
01:34:13,990 --> 01:34:12,000
and certainly it wouldn't be right to

2596
01:34:16,830 --> 01:34:14,000
say the right hemisphere is the id

2597
01:34:18,310 --> 01:34:16,840
the right hemisphere is the morally

2598
01:34:20,709 --> 01:34:18,320
self-abnegating

2599
01:34:23,590 --> 01:34:20,719
part of us the part that enables us to

2600
01:34:27,430 --> 01:34:23,600
be good friends parents and citizens

2601
01:34:29,430 --> 01:34:27,440
it is the bit that david hecht at

2602
01:34:30,790 --> 01:34:29,440
ucl in london says quite

2603
01:34:33,270 --> 01:34:30,800
straightforwardly

2604
01:34:34,149 --> 01:34:33,280
and i i think i i'd sign up to it

2605
01:34:37,110 --> 01:34:34,159
largely

2606
01:34:39,110 --> 01:34:37,120
that the right hemisphere is moral in

2607
01:34:40,229 --> 01:34:39,120
its attitudes and the land is basically

2608
01:34:42,709 --> 01:34:40,239
immoral it

2609
01:34:43,990 --> 01:34:42,719
it is there for what it can get is the

2610
01:34:48,149 --> 01:34:44,000
left hemisphere

2611
01:34:51,830 --> 01:34:48,159
immoral or amoral immoral

2612
01:34:53,830 --> 01:34:51,840
okay in other words it has a morality

2613
01:34:55,430 --> 01:34:53,840
and it has it has really no sense of

2614
01:34:58,629 --> 01:34:55,440
well let me just

2615
01:35:00,870 --> 01:34:58,639
go back on that in the book

2616
01:35:03,830 --> 01:35:00,880
this new book i argue that the left

2617
01:35:06,790 --> 01:35:03,840
hands can't really understand morality

2618
01:35:07,270 --> 01:35:06,800
it hasn't any really a sense of morality

2619
01:35:11,350 --> 01:35:07,280
so

2620
01:35:13,990 --> 01:35:11,360
it substitutes for morality calculation

2621
01:35:15,990 --> 01:35:14,000
it says if i weigh up the consequences

2622
01:35:16,470 --> 01:35:16,000
of this act and the consequences of that

2623
01:35:18,229 --> 01:35:16,480
act

2624
01:35:21,430 --> 01:35:18,239
i can find out which is the morally

2625
01:35:23,590 --> 01:35:21,440
right act that sounds very good

2626
01:35:25,830 --> 01:35:23,600
but there are many circumstances in life

2627
01:35:27,910 --> 01:35:25,840
in which it would be profoundly immoral

2628
01:35:28,629 --> 01:35:27,920
even to carry out a calculus of that

2629
01:35:31,430 --> 01:35:28,639
kind

2630
01:35:32,470 --> 01:35:31,440
and it's in normal circumstances apart

2631
01:35:35,270 --> 01:35:32,480
from one or two

2632
01:35:37,510 --> 01:35:35,280
philosophers it's mainly people who have

2633
01:35:39,189 --> 01:35:37,520
right hemisphere damage or frontal lobe

2634
01:35:41,750 --> 01:35:39,199
damage

2635
01:35:43,830 --> 01:35:41,760
or are very severely autistic who think

2636
01:35:46,470 --> 01:35:43,840
in that way

2637
01:35:48,390 --> 01:35:46,480
most of us have a sense that morality is

2638
01:35:51,189 --> 01:35:48,400
something more complex than that

2639
01:35:52,470 --> 01:35:51,199
and that we don't do it would be quite

2640
01:35:54,830 --> 01:35:52,480
wrong to make decisions

2641
01:35:56,070 --> 01:35:54,840
based on an entirely dispassionate

2642
01:35:58,870 --> 01:35:56,080
mathematical

2643
01:35:59,750 --> 01:35:58,880
in fact how would you attach the values

2644
01:36:03,109 --> 01:35:59,760
i mean

2645
01:36:06,550 --> 01:36:03,119
would a would the value gained by many

2646
01:36:09,590 --> 01:36:06,560
sadistic um pedophiles

2647
01:36:11,830 --> 01:36:09,600
around the world outweigh

2648
01:36:13,430 --> 01:36:11,840
in the pleasure given to thousands of

2649
01:36:16,229 --> 01:36:13,440
people the suffering of one

2650
01:36:16,629 --> 01:36:16,239
innocent child that is tortured for fun

2651
01:36:18,709 --> 01:36:16,639
well

2652
01:36:20,310 --> 01:36:18,719
if you have to do a sum on that then you

2653
01:36:21,510 --> 01:36:20,320
there's something wrong with your moral

2654
01:36:23,430 --> 01:36:21,520
sense

2655
01:36:26,310 --> 01:36:23,440
and i know that's an extreme case but

2656
01:36:28,149 --> 01:36:26,320
i'm afraid it's a rather important

2657
01:36:29,750 --> 01:36:28,159
indicator of something that is wrong

2658
01:36:33,270 --> 01:36:29,760
with utilitarianism

2659
01:36:34,390 --> 01:36:33,280
on its own utilitarianism has a place

2660
01:36:36,390 --> 01:36:34,400
sometimes

2661
01:36:38,149 --> 01:36:36,400
but again it's this problem the left

2662
01:36:39,910 --> 01:36:38,159
hemisphere thinks that whatever it is it

2663
01:36:40,390 --> 01:36:39,920
does is the only thing and the best

2664
01:36:42,950 --> 01:36:40,400
thing

2665
01:36:45,510 --> 01:36:42,960
whereas it's actually not even core to

2666
01:36:48,709 --> 01:36:45,520
morality utilitarianism

2667
01:36:53,030 --> 01:36:48,719
i believe in a kind of

2668
01:36:56,550 --> 01:36:53,040
um objective moral that i'm so sorry

2669
01:36:57,590 --> 01:36:56,560
do you believe in objective morals

2670
01:36:59,910 --> 01:36:57,600
well it depends what you mean by

2671
01:37:01,350 --> 01:36:59,920
objective i i don't believe it that

2672
01:37:02,870 --> 01:37:01,360
they're just subjective in the sense

2673
01:37:03,669 --> 01:37:02,880
that they're made up by us but i don't

2674
01:37:06,950 --> 01:37:03,679
believe they're

2675
01:37:08,950 --> 01:37:06,960
objective in the sense that

2676
01:37:10,390 --> 01:37:08,960
that a machine would be able to

2677
01:37:12,870 --> 01:37:10,400
calculate it

2678
01:37:13,910 --> 01:37:12,880
i mean when i say objective i mean that

2679
01:37:15,990 --> 01:37:13,920
there's something at the

2680
01:37:17,750 --> 01:37:16,000
structure of reality at the fundamental

2681
01:37:20,470 --> 01:37:17,760
the abutment that has

2682
01:37:21,830 --> 01:37:20,480
morals and that it's not just absolutely

2683
01:37:22,870 --> 01:37:21,840
no no thank you for clarifying no

2684
01:37:25,990 --> 01:37:22,880
definitely

2685
01:37:27,990 --> 01:37:26,000
no i think the cosmos is moral um which

2686
01:37:30,070 --> 01:37:28,000
isn't to say that it's all good

2687
01:37:31,109 --> 01:37:30,080
of course because morality includes the

2688
01:37:33,189 --> 01:37:31,119
whole spectrum

2689
01:37:33,880 --> 01:37:33,199
but i don't think morality is an element

2690
01:37:35,350 --> 01:37:33,890
that we've somehow

2691
01:37:37,590 --> 01:37:35,360
[Music]

2692
01:37:39,270 --> 01:37:37,600
we've come to and it's simply an

2693
01:37:41,590 --> 01:37:39,280
expression of things we like and things

2694
01:37:44,550 --> 01:37:41,600
we don't like i think it is a very

2695
01:37:45,590 --> 01:37:44,560
profound aspect of the business of being

2696
01:37:48,149 --> 01:37:45,600
alive

2697
01:37:49,030 --> 01:37:48,159
as is the appeal of beauty and of

2698
01:37:52,310 --> 01:37:49,040
complexity

2699
01:37:55,350 --> 01:37:52,320
of mathematics of of music

2700
01:37:56,310 --> 01:37:55,360
of landscape all these things embody

2701
01:37:59,350 --> 01:37:56,320
something

2702
01:38:02,870 --> 01:37:59,360
that unless we are

2703
01:38:04,629 --> 01:38:02,880
you know crippled cribbed and confined

2704
01:38:08,070 --> 01:38:04,639
by the left hemispheres

2705
01:38:09,590 --> 01:38:08,080
take on things obviously speak to us

2706
01:38:10,709 --> 01:38:09,600
about something more important than what

2707
01:38:12,950 --> 01:38:10,719
the left hemisphere

2708
01:38:14,070 --> 01:38:12,960
alone can tell us there's nothing wrong

2709
01:38:15,350 --> 01:38:14,080
you know it's not that we

2710
01:38:17,109 --> 01:38:15,360
all be better if we had a left

2711
01:38:18,950 --> 01:38:17,119
hemisphere stroke of course not

2712
01:38:20,870 --> 01:38:18,960
as i often say it's my second favorite

2713
01:38:24,229 --> 01:38:20,880
hemisphere it's terribly important

2714
01:38:25,910 --> 01:38:24,239
but it's you know it got to be under the

2715
01:38:28,310 --> 01:38:25,920
supervision of the right house it's a

2716
01:38:29,750 --> 01:38:28,320
very very good servant it carries out

2717
01:38:31,510 --> 01:38:29,760
very useful tasks

2718
01:38:33,030 --> 01:38:31,520
but it hasn't got the site to see which

2719
01:38:35,430 --> 01:38:33,040
of the useful tasks so

2720
01:38:37,430 --> 01:38:35,440
it must be under the aegis the

2721
01:38:40,709 --> 01:38:37,440
protection the supervision of

2722
01:38:43,109 --> 01:38:40,719
the right hemisphere it's a a bad master

2723
01:38:45,109 --> 01:38:43,119
but a very good servant

2724
01:38:48,070 --> 01:38:45,119
in christianity there's a heavy heavy

2725
01:38:51,109 --> 01:38:48,080
emphasis on both love and truth

2726
01:38:53,030 --> 01:38:51,119
and it's not just

2727
01:38:56,709 --> 01:38:53,040
speak the truth no matter what it's

2728
01:38:58,709 --> 01:38:56,719
speak speak the truth guided by love

2729
01:38:59,990 --> 01:38:58,719
so the truth has to serve love i'm

2730
01:39:01,990 --> 01:39:00,000
wondering is that

2731
01:39:03,830 --> 01:39:02,000
mirrored by the by hemispheric structure

2732
01:39:05,910 --> 01:39:03,840
is that one right brain is

2733
01:39:07,270 --> 01:39:05,920
the love in this sense and then the left

2734
01:39:08,950 --> 01:39:07,280
is the one that's associated with truth

2735
01:39:10,790 --> 01:39:08,960
at least objectively can be associated

2736
01:39:14,790 --> 01:39:10,800
with some form of objective truth or am

2737
01:39:19,669 --> 01:39:17,750
i think you're going you're going an

2738
01:39:24,149 --> 01:39:19,679
awful lot further than i would get

2739
01:39:26,790 --> 01:39:24,159
i i don't think i would say any of that

2740
01:39:28,149 --> 01:39:26,800
um but i think it's perfectly legitimate

2741
01:39:30,229 --> 01:39:28,159
to speculate

2742
01:39:32,870 --> 01:39:30,239
when you're thinking about the richness

2743
01:39:35,830 --> 01:39:32,880
of an idea or an image or a metaphor

2744
01:39:37,189 --> 01:39:35,840
about what it can illuminate so i don't

2745
01:39:39,109 --> 01:39:37,199
think there's anything wrong with

2746
01:39:41,270 --> 01:39:39,119
having an idea and thinking well maybe

2747
01:39:42,629 --> 01:39:41,280
not but i think honestly i'd say maybe

2748
01:39:44,149 --> 01:39:42,639
not to that one

2749
01:39:45,990 --> 01:39:44,159
what do you make of daniel dennett's

2750
01:39:49,830 --> 01:39:46,000
explaining consciousness

2751
01:39:56,390 --> 01:39:53,830
well i i think it's a perfect um

2752
01:39:57,990 --> 01:39:56,400
expression a very intelligent expression

2753
01:40:01,109 --> 01:39:58,000
of a certain

2754
01:40:02,950 --> 01:40:01,119
kind of take on the world a veltan

2755
01:40:05,830 --> 01:40:02,960
chaung which

2756
01:40:07,430 --> 01:40:05,840
is to use the term that you invoked at

2757
01:40:10,870 --> 01:40:07,440
the beginning of our talk

2758
01:40:12,390 --> 01:40:10,880
that is i think rather sadly

2759
01:40:14,390 --> 01:40:12,400
impoverished

2760
01:40:15,910 --> 01:40:14,400
um and it's not a thing that can easily

2761
01:40:17,669 --> 01:40:15,920
be solved by

2762
01:40:20,870 --> 01:40:17,679
argument these are things that you come

2763
01:40:22,790 --> 01:40:20,880
to through experience

2764
01:40:24,709 --> 01:40:22,800
in other words they involve kennen as

2765
01:40:28,229 --> 01:40:24,719
well as vissen

2766
01:40:30,709 --> 01:40:28,239
and they come out of the fruit of many

2767
01:40:33,270 --> 01:40:30,719
kinds of attention to the world

2768
01:40:35,669 --> 01:40:33,280
not just the claim that comes from

2769
01:40:38,229 --> 01:40:35,679
arguing in a seminar room

2770
01:40:40,149 --> 01:40:38,239
and so i not there's anything wrong with

2771
01:40:42,629 --> 01:40:40,159
doing that but again it's a

2772
01:40:43,830 --> 01:40:42,639
supplementary aspect of what philosophy

2773
01:40:45,750 --> 01:40:43,840
is

2774
01:40:47,510 --> 01:40:45,760
philosophy has got a little bit lost i

2775
01:40:50,390 --> 01:40:47,520
think as a sort of technical

2776
01:40:52,470 --> 01:40:50,400
department in the university somewhere

2777
01:40:54,149 --> 01:40:52,480
somewhat like engineering and

2778
01:40:55,270 --> 01:40:54,159
interestingly dan dennett says that if

2779
01:40:57,030 --> 01:40:55,280
he hadn't been a philosopher he'd

2780
01:40:59,189 --> 01:40:57,040
probably been an engineer

2781
01:41:00,390 --> 01:40:59,199
um which which seems to be intuitively

2782
01:41:03,510 --> 01:41:00,400
right

2783
01:41:07,270 --> 01:41:03,520
um but it also

2784
01:41:08,870 --> 01:41:07,280
points to perhaps a certain i don't know

2785
01:41:11,270 --> 01:41:08,880
unwillingness to accept that things

2786
01:41:13,350 --> 01:41:11,280
might be beyond what he knows and more

2787
01:41:15,030 --> 01:41:13,360
complex

2788
01:41:17,350 --> 01:41:15,040
it's interesting that engineers for

2789
01:41:20,149 --> 01:41:17,360
example have a very high

2790
01:41:21,350 --> 01:41:20,159
i did a study on this at the moment the

2791
01:41:22,790 --> 01:41:21,360
hospital which i've

2792
01:41:24,629 --> 01:41:22,800
never actually got around to publishing

2793
01:41:25,990 --> 01:41:24,639
but it was very clear that i didn't

2794
01:41:29,669 --> 01:41:26,000
expect the results

2795
01:41:33,350 --> 01:41:29,679
that people who became mentally ill

2796
01:41:36,070 --> 01:41:33,360
at university

2797
01:41:37,430 --> 01:41:36,080
with a major mental illness those who

2798
01:41:41,030 --> 01:41:37,440
became manic-depressive

2799
01:41:43,910 --> 01:41:41,040
i had an emotional disturbance

2800
01:41:44,790 --> 01:41:43,920
as a primary element in their psychosis

2801
01:41:47,990 --> 01:41:44,800
were not

2802
01:41:49,990 --> 01:41:48,000
principally philosophers or engineers

2803
01:41:51,669 --> 01:41:50,000
but those with schizophrenia were

2804
01:41:52,950 --> 01:41:51,679
massively more likely to have been

2805
01:41:56,950 --> 01:41:52,960
studying engineering

2806
01:42:00,870 --> 01:41:56,960
or philosophy than any other subject and

2807
01:42:04,390 --> 01:42:00,880
it's also come to light that um

2808
01:42:07,350 --> 01:42:04,400
terrorists who are fundamentalists

2809
01:42:10,229 --> 01:42:07,360
have engineers are more represented

2810
01:42:12,629 --> 01:42:10,239
amongst them than amongst other people

2811
01:42:14,149 --> 01:42:12,639
i i you know of course i'm not trying to

2812
01:42:15,910 --> 01:42:14,159
say that

2813
01:42:17,109 --> 01:42:15,920
that that all engineers are like this

2814
01:42:20,550 --> 01:42:17,119
but i'm just pointing to a sort of

2815
01:42:24,229 --> 01:42:22,870
i don't know the predilection for

2816
01:42:26,790 --> 01:42:24,239
engineer-like thinking

2817
01:42:27,270 --> 01:42:26,800
is what is also so it's a pre-election

2818
01:42:33,109 --> 01:42:27,280
for

2819
01:42:35,590 --> 01:42:33,119
of willingness to accept that things

2820
01:42:36,950 --> 01:42:35,600
are not certain and maybe much more

2821
01:42:39,350 --> 01:42:36,960
complex than one

2822
01:42:40,070 --> 01:42:39,360
has given them credit for being let's

2823
01:42:42,229 --> 01:42:40,080
see

2824
01:42:43,109 --> 01:42:42,239
i wanted i'm trying to find this one

2825
01:42:46,310 --> 01:42:43,119
question

2826
01:42:47,189 --> 01:42:46,320
about well okay before i find that

2827
01:42:48,790 --> 01:42:47,199
question

2828
01:42:51,030 --> 01:42:48,800
i'm curious how is it that you were able

2829
01:42:51,430 --> 01:42:51,040
to pin down the insights about the right

2830
01:42:55,510 --> 01:42:51,440
brain

2831
01:42:57,270 --> 01:42:55,520
a book written in language and so on so

2832
01:42:58,950 --> 01:42:57,280
did you engage in meditative exercises

2833
01:43:00,550 --> 01:42:58,960
did you speak to spiritual gurus

2834
01:43:02,070 --> 01:43:00,560
how did you do it or did you just read

2835
01:43:03,350 --> 01:43:02,080
dispassionately the literature and then

2836
01:43:06,950 --> 01:43:03,360
you said okay this is what the right

2837
01:43:10,870 --> 01:43:09,109
well i think it was very like my idea of

2838
01:43:12,629 --> 01:43:10,880
the right brain

2839
01:43:15,830 --> 01:43:12,639
guiding in the left hemisphere doing

2840
01:43:19,910 --> 01:43:15,840
much of the sort of procedural work

2841
01:43:22,310 --> 01:43:19,920
so it's often been pointed out to me

2842
01:43:23,189 --> 01:43:22,320
that without a highly active left

2843
01:43:24,629 --> 01:43:23,199
hemisphere

2844
01:43:28,070 --> 01:43:24,639
i couldn't possibly have written that

2845
01:43:30,229 --> 01:43:28,080
book with its attention to

2846
01:43:32,070 --> 01:43:30,239
expressing extremely difficult things

2847
01:43:33,830 --> 01:43:32,080
that are not intuitively

2848
01:43:35,990 --> 01:43:33,840
the things that most people nowadays in

2849
01:43:38,629 --> 01:43:36,000
the west think in language

2850
01:43:41,590 --> 01:43:38,639
and arguing for them and inducing an

2851
01:43:44,790 --> 01:43:41,600
enormous amount of scientific evidence

2852
01:43:48,070 --> 01:43:44,800
um so i think the left hemisphere

2853
01:43:52,149 --> 01:43:48,080
as i say was a valuable servant to me

2854
01:43:55,669 --> 01:43:52,159
but what i hope is that i was guided by

2855
01:43:58,310 --> 01:43:55,679
a sense of as something that i was

2856
01:44:00,229 --> 01:43:58,320
i was aware of but not fully aware of

2857
01:44:01,430 --> 01:44:00,239
and wanted to explore more and to bring

2858
01:44:06,229 --> 01:44:01,440
into

2859
01:44:07,189 --> 01:44:06,239
the light so that it could be better

2860
01:44:10,310 --> 01:44:07,199
seen

2861
01:44:11,030 --> 01:44:10,320
i think this is the process it's it's

2862
01:44:14,149 --> 01:44:11,040
more like

2863
01:44:14,790 --> 01:44:14,159
seeing a gestalt seeing a form then it

2864
01:44:18,149 --> 01:44:14,800
is

2865
01:44:18,950 --> 01:44:18,159
culminating an argument in which step a

2866
01:44:20,870 --> 01:44:18,960
leads to b

2867
01:44:23,030 --> 01:44:20,880
through to zed and then you switch off

2868
01:44:25,910 --> 01:44:23,040
and say right proved

2869
01:44:27,350 --> 01:44:25,920
that's never going to be a success in

2870
01:44:29,990 --> 01:44:27,360
philosophy in my view

2871
01:44:32,629 --> 01:44:30,000
i say rather controversially because the

2872
01:44:34,149 --> 01:44:32,639
world is not like that

2873
01:44:35,669 --> 01:44:34,159
and plato right at the start thought

2874
01:44:36,390 --> 01:44:35,679
that we shouldn't even write philosophy

2875
01:44:39,830 --> 01:44:36,400
down

2876
01:44:42,629 --> 01:44:39,840
that it could only be done by people

2877
01:44:44,229 --> 01:44:42,639
living people talking to one another for

2878
01:44:44,870 --> 01:44:44,239
a long period getting to know one

2879
01:44:46,830 --> 01:44:44,880
another

2880
01:44:47,990 --> 01:44:46,840
and that then an intuition would come

2881
01:44:51,109 --> 01:44:48,000
about

2882
01:44:52,950 --> 01:44:51,119
like a spark would be kindled now that's

2883
01:44:54,709 --> 01:44:52,960
right at the founding of modern western

2884
01:44:56,870 --> 01:44:54,719
philosophy but we've got a very long way

2885
01:45:00,470 --> 01:44:56,880
from it

2886
01:45:03,590 --> 01:45:00,480
um i i yes i i think the

2887
01:45:04,550 --> 01:45:03,600
the image that i i like is and it's

2888
01:45:05,990 --> 01:45:04,560
occurred to me

2889
01:45:09,430 --> 01:45:06,000
when i was writing my very first book in

2890
01:45:11,510 --> 01:45:09,440
my 20s was what i was trying to say

2891
01:45:13,030 --> 01:45:11,520
was that we have understandings of

2892
01:45:16,070 --> 01:45:13,040
things

2893
01:45:19,270 --> 01:45:16,080
specifically works of literature or

2894
01:45:22,390 --> 01:45:19,280
of music or art or whatever they are not

2895
01:45:24,229 --> 01:45:22,400
by a linear chain of discovery

2896
01:45:25,990 --> 01:45:24,239
but by circling them and seeing them

2897
01:45:29,830 --> 01:45:26,000
from different aspects

2898
01:45:31,910 --> 01:45:29,840
and that it's more like a picture that

2899
01:45:34,310 --> 01:45:31,920
gradually comes into focus or even quite

2900
01:45:36,149 --> 01:45:34,320
suddenly at some point comes into focus

2901
01:45:38,229 --> 01:45:36,159
so at the time you're looking at it it

2902
01:45:41,109 --> 01:45:38,239
doesn't seem coherent

2903
01:45:41,830 --> 01:45:41,119
but then gradually you see bit comes and

2904
01:45:45,030 --> 01:45:41,840
you see i

2905
01:45:46,870 --> 01:45:45,040
see you have an aha moment and things

2906
01:45:48,470 --> 01:45:46,880
begin to fall into place and then other

2907
01:45:50,310 --> 01:45:48,480
things

2908
01:45:52,070 --> 01:45:50,320
refuse to fall into the pictures you've

2909
01:45:54,950 --> 01:45:52,080
got and they help guide

2910
01:45:55,750 --> 01:45:54,960
the next stage so there's a new gesture

2911
01:45:57,590 --> 01:45:55,760
a better one

2912
01:45:59,510 --> 01:45:57,600
replaces and indeed in philosophy what

2913
01:46:01,510 --> 01:45:59,520
we're doing is always just replacing one

2914
01:46:04,390 --> 01:46:01,520
gestalt with another

2915
01:46:05,430 --> 01:46:04,400
what i mean by a gestalt is a form which

2916
01:46:07,430 --> 01:46:05,440
is a whole

2917
01:46:08,709 --> 01:46:07,440
which is more than any of the parts i

2918
01:46:09,669 --> 01:46:08,719
know you know this but i'm just saying

2919
01:46:12,070 --> 01:46:09,679
it in case any

2920
01:46:14,310 --> 01:46:12,080
listener doesn't define the term

2921
01:46:16,229 --> 01:46:14,320
familiar but it's the whole idea that

2922
01:46:17,590 --> 01:46:16,239
there is a whole of something that can't

2923
01:46:19,510 --> 01:46:17,600
be accessed fully

2924
01:46:22,790 --> 01:46:19,520
by simply dividing it up into its parts

2925
01:46:25,990 --> 01:46:22,800
something essential to it is lost

2926
01:46:28,709 --> 01:46:26,000
i have a quote here it's you quoting

2927
01:46:30,070 --> 01:46:28,719
sauce from schizophrenic mind and i'm

2928
01:46:31,430 --> 01:46:30,080
not gonna i'm just gonna paraphrase it

2929
01:46:34,629 --> 01:46:31,440
because it's a quite a

2930
01:46:35,910 --> 01:46:34,639
long paragraph it says that when you

2931
01:46:36,790 --> 01:46:35,920
engage in the world in a passive

2932
01:46:39,109 --> 01:46:36,800
disengaged

2933
01:46:39,990 --> 01:46:39,119
self-conscious stare at the world in an

2934
01:46:42,390 --> 01:46:40,000
objective manner

2935
01:46:43,590 --> 01:46:42,400
it becomes bizarre alien frightening and

2936
01:46:46,390 --> 01:46:43,600
that's akin to

2937
01:46:47,669 --> 01:46:46,400
the schizophrenic mind however yes the

2938
01:46:49,990 --> 01:46:47,679
process of mindfulness

2939
01:46:51,510 --> 01:46:50,000
mindfulness meditation seems shockingly

2940
01:46:53,430 --> 01:46:51,520
similar where you're supposed to stand

2941
01:46:56,390 --> 01:46:53,440
back and you simply observe

2942
01:46:58,870 --> 01:46:56,400
no judgment don't engage it's all just

2943
01:47:01,030 --> 01:46:58,880
being fed to you

2944
01:47:03,109 --> 01:47:01,040
yes but yet on the one hand mindfulness

2945
01:47:04,470 --> 01:47:03,119
meditation is seen as salutary but then

2946
01:47:05,270 --> 01:47:04,480
obviously schizophrenia is not it's

2947
01:47:08,470 --> 01:47:05,280
unadaptive

2948
01:47:10,310 --> 01:47:08,480
so how do you balance those two or solve

2949
01:47:15,669 --> 01:47:10,320
that antinomy

2950
01:47:21,109 --> 01:47:19,189
the hemisphere paradigm

2951
01:47:23,669 --> 01:47:21,119
one is what happens when you allow the

2952
01:47:26,390 --> 01:47:23,679
left hemisphere only to be

2953
01:47:27,510 --> 01:47:26,400
working this is the standing back so

2954
01:47:29,830 --> 01:47:27,520
that your body

2955
01:47:31,750 --> 01:47:29,840
is not involved so that your feeling

2956
01:47:33,910 --> 01:47:31,760
self is not involved

2957
01:47:35,990 --> 01:47:33,920
so that you have deliberately cut off

2958
01:47:37,990 --> 01:47:36,000
all the contacts from something

2959
01:47:39,189 --> 01:47:38,000
and then see it as something utterly

2960
01:47:42,629 --> 01:47:39,199
alien

2961
01:47:45,830 --> 01:47:42,639
whereas the mindfulness

2962
01:47:46,709 --> 01:47:45,840
is and in interestingly and perhaps not

2963
01:47:49,910 --> 01:47:46,719
essentially but

2964
01:47:51,350 --> 01:47:49,920
interestingly the science of mindfulness

2965
01:47:54,420 --> 01:47:51,360
shows that it does

2966
01:47:55,590 --> 01:47:54,430
rely more heavily on right hemisphere um

2967
01:47:59,030 --> 01:47:55,600
[Music]

2968
01:48:01,270 --> 01:47:59,040
activations than left and indeed on

2969
01:48:02,470 --> 01:48:01,280
changes practitioners in the structure

2970
01:48:03,830 --> 01:48:02,480
of the right hemisphere

2971
01:48:05,990 --> 01:48:03,840
but i don't think that's the important

2972
01:48:09,030 --> 01:48:06,000
point i think what is going on

2973
01:48:09,990 --> 01:48:09,040
in mindfulness is that you are adopting

2974
01:48:15,030 --> 01:48:10,000
the

2975
01:48:16,629 --> 01:48:15,040
although you might think it is similar

2976
01:48:20,229 --> 01:48:16,639
it is the exact opposite

2977
01:48:22,950 --> 01:48:20,239
because where as the one is as it were

2978
01:48:24,310 --> 01:48:22,960
isolated and detached the other is

2979
01:48:27,430 --> 01:48:24,320
standing back

2980
01:48:29,750 --> 01:48:27,440
enough to allow the self not to crowd

2981
01:48:33,350 --> 01:48:29,760
everything out

2982
01:48:35,189 --> 01:48:33,360
where the one is actually thinking about

2983
01:48:37,109 --> 01:48:35,199
things all the time the other is saying

2984
01:48:40,149 --> 01:48:37,119
no i'm not going to think at all

2985
01:48:43,590 --> 01:48:40,159
i'm just going to be there with it

2986
01:48:46,790 --> 01:48:43,600
now in the first case in the sort of

2987
01:48:47,990 --> 01:48:46,800
frightening alienating way which

2988
01:48:51,350 --> 01:48:48,000
interestingly

2989
01:48:52,070 --> 01:48:51,360
uh schreiber describes the 19th century

2990
01:48:54,149 --> 01:48:52,080
judge who

2991
01:48:55,669 --> 01:48:54,159
became schizophrenic in his middle years

2992
01:48:59,590 --> 01:48:55,679
and wrote a wonderful

2993
01:49:01,510 --> 01:48:59,600
journal of his mental illness um

2994
01:49:03,910 --> 01:49:01,520
schreiber describes exactly this that

2995
01:49:06,550 --> 01:49:03,920
the world becomes alien as soon as you

2996
01:49:08,310 --> 01:49:06,560
start reflecting on it so much that you

2997
01:49:11,109 --> 01:49:08,320
you drop all the connection with it

2998
01:49:12,070 --> 01:49:11,119
now in mindfulness you are not absent

2999
01:49:14,070 --> 01:49:12,080
from the world

3000
01:49:15,270 --> 01:49:14,080
it's about being fully present in the

3001
01:49:17,109 --> 01:49:15,280
world the

3002
01:49:18,790 --> 01:49:17,119
the idea is that in normal life you're

3003
01:49:20,310 --> 01:49:18,800
not fully present you're not actually

3004
01:49:22,470 --> 01:49:20,320
there with the world at all because your

3005
01:49:25,510 --> 01:49:22,480
thoughts your ideas your judgments

3006
01:49:27,030 --> 01:49:25,520
yourself is crowding it all out so in

3007
01:49:31,030 --> 01:49:27,040
fact they're quite opposite

3008
01:49:34,870 --> 01:49:32,629
i sometimes talk about something called

3009
01:49:37,669 --> 01:49:34,880
necessary distance

3010
01:49:39,109 --> 01:49:37,679
and what i mean by that is exactly that

3011
01:49:41,109 --> 01:49:39,119
kind of distance

3012
01:49:42,390 --> 01:49:41,119
that enables you to see something

3013
01:49:45,669 --> 01:49:42,400
properly as a whole

3014
01:49:47,750 --> 01:49:45,679
not to swamp it but it doesn't mean

3015
01:49:49,669 --> 01:49:47,760
being so far detached from it that you

3016
01:49:50,070 --> 01:49:49,679
can't see it or understand it or relate

3017
01:49:52,470 --> 01:49:50,080
to it

3018
01:49:53,109 --> 01:49:52,480
that would be the opposite of necessary

3019
01:49:56,790 --> 01:49:53,119
distance

3020
01:49:59,030 --> 01:49:56,800
is such a thing as

3021
01:50:00,229 --> 01:49:59,040
toxic fusion in which you can be so

3022
01:50:02,470 --> 01:50:00,239
close to something you can't

3023
01:50:03,350 --> 01:50:02,480
see it make it out or accept its being

3024
01:50:04,950 --> 01:50:03,360
at all

3025
01:50:07,510 --> 01:50:04,960
why is it that you associate it in a

3026
01:50:09,430 --> 01:50:07,520
metaphor the rising up and floating with

3027
01:50:10,390 --> 01:50:09,440
the left hemisphere and then being on

3028
01:50:12,629 --> 01:50:10,400
the ground

3029
01:50:14,070 --> 01:50:12,639
with the right hemisphere because to me

3030
01:50:15,510 --> 01:50:14,080
i would think that the left one is the

3031
01:50:16,149 --> 01:50:15,520
one that's on the ground manipulating

3032
01:50:17,510 --> 01:50:16,159
and the left

3033
01:50:20,310 --> 01:50:17,520
sorry and the right hemisphere is the

3034
01:50:24,070 --> 01:50:20,320
one that can see the whole picture

3035
01:50:26,790 --> 01:50:24,080
yes well you're very

3036
01:50:27,270 --> 01:50:26,800
i think entirely rightly put your finger

3037
01:50:32,310 --> 01:50:27,280
on

3038
01:50:34,950 --> 01:50:32,320
breaks down in these circumstances and

3039
01:50:37,030 --> 01:50:34,960
you have to use a whole variety of them

3040
01:50:39,030 --> 01:50:37,040
what i was really thinking of was that

3041
01:50:40,070 --> 01:50:39,040
it it was like the difference between

3042
01:50:43,109 --> 01:50:40,080
someone who is actually

3043
01:50:43,990 --> 01:50:43,119
living a life on the ground and somebody

3044
01:50:46,390 --> 01:50:44,000
who is

3045
01:50:47,270 --> 01:50:46,400
doing a sort of aerial photograph of it

3046
01:50:50,229 --> 01:50:47,280
in order to map

3047
01:50:52,229 --> 01:50:50,239
it that as where all that is there on

3048
01:50:54,229 --> 01:50:52,239
the ground is present to the person

3049
01:50:55,510 --> 01:50:54,239
who's experiencing it headlong in the

3050
01:50:59,589 --> 01:50:55,520
business of life

3051
01:51:03,270 --> 01:50:59,599
who actually sees the garden sees their

3052
01:51:06,070 --> 01:51:03,280
children you know hears the wind and

3053
01:51:08,390 --> 01:51:06,080
sees the stars and the mind that is

3054
01:51:11,430 --> 01:51:08,400
already dissecting analyzing and

3055
01:51:13,270 --> 01:51:11,440
remote so you're quite right that the

3056
01:51:15,030 --> 01:51:13,280
left hemisphere this is another way of

3057
01:51:15,669 --> 01:51:15,040
putting the finger on what i was trying

3058
01:51:17,270 --> 01:51:15,679
to say

3059
01:51:19,510 --> 01:51:17,280
is there's a kind of distancing which

3060
01:51:21,109 --> 01:51:19,520
can be removed but there's a kind of

3061
01:51:21,990 --> 01:51:21,119
distancing which enables you to see the

3062
01:51:24,950 --> 01:51:22,000
whole picture

3063
01:51:26,229 --> 01:51:24,960
just as the kind of being fixed on the

3064
01:51:29,510 --> 01:51:26,239
here and now

3065
01:51:30,870 --> 01:51:29,520
which is generous and wise and allows

3066
01:51:33,109 --> 01:51:30,880
you to understand it

3067
01:51:34,149 --> 01:51:33,119
and are being fixed on the here and now

3068
01:51:37,430 --> 01:51:34,159
which is just about

3069
01:51:38,709 --> 01:51:37,440
acquisition and accumulation of power

3070
01:51:41,990 --> 01:51:38,719
and influence

3071
01:51:43,510 --> 01:51:42,000
so they each contribute to both as you

3072
01:51:45,750 --> 01:51:43,520
would expect

3073
01:51:47,430 --> 01:51:45,760
each has a version of closeness each has

3074
01:51:50,629 --> 01:51:47,440
a version of distance

3075
01:51:52,310 --> 01:51:50,639
as i keep saying every concept you care

3076
01:51:54,229 --> 01:51:52,320
to name

3077
01:51:56,070 --> 01:51:54,239
has a left hemisphere take and a right

3078
01:51:58,550 --> 01:51:56,080
hemisphere take so it's not

3079
01:52:00,629 --> 01:51:58,560
as i say that they do different things

3080
01:52:02,470 --> 01:52:00,639
they do the same things but they do them

3081
01:52:05,510 --> 01:52:02,480
always from a coherently

3082
01:52:07,030 --> 01:52:05,520
different perspective i see coherently

3083
01:52:08,070 --> 01:52:07,040
different

3084
01:52:10,550 --> 01:52:08,080
because i can imagine that they don't

3085
01:52:13,669 --> 01:52:10,560
completely differ

3086
01:52:16,390 --> 01:52:13,679
yes what i'm trying to suggest is

3087
01:52:18,709 --> 01:52:16,400
within themselves coherent i see what i

3088
01:52:21,430 --> 01:52:18,719
mean like a self-consistent

3089
01:52:22,149 --> 01:52:21,440
yes yeah self-consistency so that for

3090
01:52:24,390 --> 01:52:22,159
example

3091
01:52:25,830 --> 01:52:24,400
you might say so how does the left

3092
01:52:27,350 --> 01:52:25,840
hemisphere view language how does the

3093
01:52:29,910 --> 01:52:27,360
right hemisphere blue language

3094
01:52:31,270 --> 01:52:29,920
how does the left hemisphere view

3095
01:52:32,229 --> 01:52:31,280
distance how does the right hemisphere

3096
01:52:33,430 --> 01:52:32,239
distance okay

3097
01:52:35,430 --> 01:52:33,440
they don't sound like they've got very

3098
01:52:39,669 --> 01:52:35,440
much in common but when you come

3099
01:52:43,430 --> 01:52:42,149
looks at everything there are very

3100
01:52:44,709 --> 01:52:43,440
common threads that are consistent

3101
01:52:46,550 --> 01:52:44,719
through how the right hemisphere deals

3102
01:52:48,149 --> 01:52:46,560
with every aspect of existence

3103
01:52:49,990 --> 01:52:48,159
and very common threads that

3104
01:52:50,470 --> 01:52:50,000
characterize the way the left hemisphere

3105
01:52:53,430 --> 01:52:50,480
does

3106
01:52:54,390 --> 01:52:53,440
so they're not coherent together so much

3107
01:52:57,589 --> 01:52:54,400
as coherent

3108
01:53:00,550 --> 01:52:57,599
within themselves but the art of life

3109
01:53:02,629 --> 01:53:00,560
is bringing these two things to bear in

3110
01:53:05,510 --> 01:53:02,639
such a way that the richness that

3111
01:53:07,270 --> 01:53:05,520
they can only really come from them both

3112
01:53:09,350 --> 01:53:07,280
is not swamped by the left hemisphere

3113
01:53:11,030 --> 01:53:09,360
trying to take over the whole show

3114
01:53:12,390 --> 01:53:11,040
it doesn't happen the other way around

3115
01:53:12,950 --> 01:53:12,400
because the right hand people often say

3116
01:53:15,030 --> 01:53:12,960
well you

3117
01:53:16,709 --> 01:53:15,040
you've put your finger on you know what

3118
01:53:18,149 --> 01:53:16,719
a left hemisphere world looks like

3119
01:53:20,229 --> 01:53:18,159
because at the end of the book in the

3120
01:53:21,830 --> 01:53:20,239
last chapter i sort of describe a world

3121
01:53:24,229 --> 01:53:21,840
in which the left hemisphere

3122
01:53:25,030 --> 01:53:24,239
based on what the reader knows about it

3123
01:53:27,669 --> 01:53:25,040
would

3124
01:53:28,070 --> 01:53:27,679
make of a world and in reading it you i

3125
01:53:30,950 --> 01:53:28,080
think

3126
01:53:32,790 --> 01:53:30,960
most people see a very clear portrait of

3127
01:53:34,310 --> 01:53:32,800
what is happening to us now

3128
01:53:35,910 --> 01:53:34,320
so people say but what would a right

3129
01:53:37,589 --> 01:53:35,920
hemisphere world look like

3130
01:53:39,270 --> 01:53:37,599
the answer is well it would be a very

3131
01:53:40,390 --> 01:53:39,280
balanced one and there's never been a

3132
01:53:43,350 --> 01:53:40,400
civilization that

3133
01:53:45,109 --> 01:53:43,360
didn't have its left hemisphere aspects

3134
01:53:46,470 --> 01:53:45,119
because the right hemisphere sees more

3135
01:53:47,910 --> 01:53:46,480
it therefore knows that it needs the

3136
01:53:50,470 --> 01:53:47,920
left hemisphere

3137
01:53:52,070 --> 01:53:50,480
it after all if it's if it's the master

3138
01:53:54,229 --> 01:53:52,080
it appointed the embassy because it

3139
01:53:56,950 --> 01:53:54,239
realized it needed the emissary

3140
01:53:58,390 --> 01:53:56,960
the emissary coming into existence and

3141
01:54:01,830 --> 01:53:58,400
being crowned as this

3142
01:54:03,430 --> 01:54:01,840
you know a very wise minister

3143
01:54:05,430 --> 01:54:03,440
thinks it knows everything when it

3144
01:54:07,669 --> 01:54:05,440
doesn't and that's the problem

3145
01:54:09,430 --> 01:54:07,679
it's people who think they've got it all

3146
01:54:12,310 --> 01:54:09,440
in the bag

3147
01:54:13,510 --> 01:54:12,320
now is our consciousness i think sorry

3148
01:54:16,470 --> 01:54:13,520
sorry i was wondering is our

3149
01:54:19,589 --> 01:54:18,229
residing in the left brain or residing

3150
01:54:21,030 --> 01:54:19,599
in the right hemisphere or is it in the

3151
01:54:22,310 --> 01:54:21,040
interplay between both or is it being

3152
01:54:24,470 --> 01:54:22,320
fed from both

3153
01:54:26,149 --> 01:54:24,480
because as i hear you say the left

3154
01:54:27,589 --> 01:54:26,159
thinks it's in charge it reminds me of

3155
01:54:29,589 --> 01:54:27,599
our consciousness that thinks

3156
01:54:31,270 --> 01:54:29,599
we're the ones that are in control and

3157
01:54:32,229 --> 01:54:31,280
then it has and then we have to be

3158
01:54:33,589 --> 01:54:32,239
confronted with

3159
01:54:35,510 --> 01:54:33,599
a myriad of psychological studies to

3160
01:54:36,629 --> 01:54:35,520
show no you're a monkey on a elephant's

3161
01:54:38,310 --> 01:54:36,639
back and you think that you're

3162
01:54:40,790 --> 01:54:38,320
controlling it but this elephant's gonna

3163
01:54:42,149 --> 01:54:40,800
go wherever it wants so are we

3164
01:54:43,990 --> 01:54:42,159
when i'm speaking with you right now or

3165
01:54:44,550 --> 01:54:44,000
when one is speaking with you are we

3166
01:54:46,229 --> 01:54:44,560
either

3167
01:54:48,229 --> 01:54:46,239
engaging in one of those modes are we

3168
01:54:51,750 --> 01:54:48,239
primarily on the left are we

3169
01:54:52,790 --> 01:54:51,760
both somehow being fed from each

3170
01:54:54,390 --> 01:54:52,800
when you start talking about the

3171
01:54:55,910 --> 01:54:54,400
relationship between consciousness and

3172
01:54:59,430 --> 01:54:55,920
the brain then you know you really

3173
01:55:01,270 --> 01:54:59,440
are in very very rarefied areas and i

3174
01:55:03,030 --> 01:55:01,280
don't shy from talking about it in the

3175
01:55:05,430 --> 01:55:03,040
book a chapter which is

3176
01:55:06,390 --> 01:55:05,440
the length of a short book on its own on

3177
01:55:15,510 --> 01:55:06,400
it

3178
01:55:21,589 --> 01:55:18,870
in my experience the elephant

3179
01:55:22,709 --> 01:55:21,599
is all that we are not currently aware

3180
01:55:24,629 --> 01:55:22,719
of

3181
01:55:26,149 --> 01:55:24,639
and the monkey is just that foolish

3182
01:55:29,109 --> 01:55:26,159
little bit that is doing

3183
01:55:29,510 --> 01:55:29,119
the thinking and talking consciously now

3184
01:55:32,470 --> 01:55:29,520
so

3185
01:55:33,510 --> 01:55:32,480
earlier i said most of everything we are

3186
01:55:37,750 --> 01:55:33,520
doing

3187
01:55:38,870 --> 01:55:37,760
fact if we try to do it consciously we

3188
01:55:40,790 --> 01:55:38,880
do it very badly

3189
01:55:42,790 --> 01:55:40,800
it's one of the interesting things is

3190
01:55:43,510 --> 01:55:42,800
that the better you get as a chess

3191
01:55:46,070 --> 01:55:43,520
player

3192
01:55:46,550 --> 01:55:46,080
the less you think consciously about it

3193
01:55:49,109 --> 01:55:46,560
right

3194
01:55:49,830 --> 01:55:49,119
so the same is true of a surgeon or a

3195
01:55:51,270 --> 01:55:49,840
pilot

3196
01:55:52,790 --> 01:55:51,280
they have to think a lot to begin with

3197
01:55:53,669 --> 01:55:52,800
but as they get better they think less

3198
01:55:56,790 --> 01:55:53,679
and less

3199
01:55:58,229 --> 01:55:56,800
so the the role of that monkey is

3200
01:56:00,470 --> 01:55:58,239
rightly considered not

3201
01:56:02,629 --> 01:56:00,480
important compared with the elephant

3202
01:56:04,709 --> 01:56:02,639
which is wise and has memory

3203
01:56:05,750 --> 01:56:04,719
so that's the way i'd look at that i

3204
01:56:07,510 --> 01:56:05,760
don't see those

3205
01:56:10,070 --> 01:56:07,520
images as therefore telling us that

3206
01:56:12,870 --> 01:56:10,080
we're just the puppets or play things

3207
01:56:14,629 --> 01:56:12,880
of something else i mean that's a very

3208
01:56:15,669 --> 01:56:14,639
very skewed left hemisphere way of

3209
01:56:17,510 --> 01:56:15,679
thinking about it

3210
01:56:20,070 --> 01:56:17,520
of course it's only interested in power

3211
01:56:22,149 --> 01:56:20,080
and control but actually what it is it's

3212
01:56:25,589 --> 01:56:22,159
saying no

3213
01:56:28,709 --> 01:56:25,599
what you are is rooted very deeply in

3214
01:56:30,149 --> 01:56:28,719
the whole of your experience including

3215
01:56:31,830 --> 01:56:30,159
the bits that you're now conscious of

3216
01:56:32,470 --> 01:56:31,840
but including many that you work on

3217
01:56:34,950 --> 01:56:32,480
yourself for

3218
01:56:37,350 --> 01:56:34,960
another mint and now and things that you

3219
01:56:41,030 --> 01:56:37,360
perhaps never conscious of so anyway

3220
01:56:42,629 --> 01:56:41,040
um and complicatedly consciousness has

3221
01:56:45,030 --> 01:56:42,639
two meanings one is

3222
01:56:45,990 --> 01:56:45,040
as against the things you're not aware

3223
01:56:49,189 --> 01:56:46,000
of like

3224
01:56:50,790 --> 01:56:49,199
oh um at that moment i i wasn't

3225
01:56:53,189 --> 01:56:50,800
conscious of the fact that it's

3226
01:56:54,390 --> 01:56:53,199
you know my friend's birthday or

3227
01:56:56,870 --> 01:56:54,400
something like that

3228
01:56:58,870 --> 01:56:56,880
but it also is used in the sense of what

3229
01:57:02,310 --> 01:56:58,880
you lose when you go into a coma or die

3230
01:57:05,910 --> 01:57:03,990
what i'm really saying is there is a

3231
01:57:09,189 --> 01:57:05,920
kind of consciousness that we

3232
01:57:11,910 --> 01:57:09,199
find all too obvious and over value

3233
01:57:13,189 --> 01:57:11,920
which is the one that does the chatting

3234
01:57:16,390 --> 01:57:13,199
and talking and thinking

3235
01:57:18,149 --> 01:57:16,400
right now but what i mean by our

3236
01:57:19,830 --> 01:57:18,159
conscious awareness of the world is a

3237
01:57:21,830 --> 01:57:19,840
deep thing that is going on in both

3238
01:57:24,629 --> 01:57:21,840
hemispheres all the time

3239
01:57:25,990 --> 01:57:24,639
when we narrow down to the conscious

3240
01:57:28,550 --> 01:57:26,000
mind we're talking about that

3241
01:57:30,629 --> 01:57:28,560
focus of the left hemisphere an image i

3242
01:57:32,550 --> 01:57:30,639
sometimes use again if it's helpful

3243
01:57:34,550 --> 01:57:32,560
is that we sometimes think of the

3244
01:57:36,310 --> 01:57:34,560
unconscious as underneath the conscious

3245
01:57:38,390 --> 01:57:36,320
as like a sort of

3246
01:57:39,830 --> 01:57:38,400
a deep tank that you would come to if

3247
01:57:41,189 --> 01:57:39,840
you went through the floor of your

3248
01:57:45,270 --> 01:57:41,199
conscious

3249
01:57:49,109 --> 01:57:45,280
would think of it as

3250
01:57:50,950 --> 01:57:49,119
a stage that is basically in darkness

3251
01:57:52,950 --> 01:57:50,960
except where the floodlight the

3252
01:57:55,510 --> 01:57:52,960
spotlight happens to go

3253
01:57:57,510 --> 01:57:55,520
and when that moves to a certain place

3254
01:57:59,350 --> 01:57:57,520
something suddenly shows up

3255
01:58:01,030 --> 01:57:59,360
but when it moves away that something

3256
01:58:02,229 --> 01:58:01,040
doesn't go away it's just that at the

3257
01:58:03,510 --> 01:58:02,239
moment you're not looking at it you're

3258
01:58:08,229 --> 01:58:03,520
looking at something else

3259
01:58:11,589 --> 01:58:08,239
so we are a field of consciousness

3260
01:58:12,870 --> 01:58:11,599
in fact liechtenberg says and shelling

3261
01:58:16,550 --> 01:58:12,880
says

3262
01:58:17,589 --> 01:58:16,560
it thinks in me so as it were there is a

3263
01:58:19,910 --> 01:58:17,599
field of me

3264
01:58:21,189 --> 01:58:19,920
which is the minus of me and all that

3265
01:58:23,189 --> 01:58:21,199
goes into that

3266
01:58:24,629 --> 01:58:23,199
and it's not something alien from me it

3267
01:58:26,629 --> 01:58:24,639
is who i am

3268
01:58:27,990 --> 01:58:26,639
and it's out of that that my thinking

3269
01:58:30,550 --> 01:58:28,000
comes the

3270
01:58:31,910 --> 01:58:30,560
cartesian idea that there must be a

3271
01:58:35,589 --> 01:58:31,920
little chatty ego

3272
01:58:39,430 --> 01:58:35,599
for there to be an eye helps us

3273
01:58:41,990 --> 01:58:39,440
forget or miss the two depths of our

3274
01:58:43,830 --> 01:58:42,000
being so anyway

3275
01:58:45,910 --> 01:58:43,840
when you when you do split brain

3276
01:58:48,149 --> 01:58:45,920
experiments um

3277
01:58:49,910 --> 01:58:48,159
you can interrogate each hemisphere as a

3278
01:58:51,109 --> 01:58:49,920
time and each one is conscious

3279
01:58:53,270 --> 01:58:51,119
it's just that the right hemisphere

3280
01:58:55,669 --> 01:58:53,280
can't in that moment though

3281
01:58:56,310 --> 01:58:55,679
those things sorry sorry sorry to

3282
01:58:57,750 --> 01:58:56,320
interrupt

3283
01:58:59,669 --> 01:58:57,760
because i'm super curious about this

3284
01:59:02,709 --> 01:58:59,679
okay so you have a good one

3285
01:59:04,390 --> 01:59:02,719
sodomy and then you ask the question

3286
01:59:05,589 --> 01:59:04,400
and then you confabulate an answer

3287
01:59:07,430 --> 01:59:05,599
because you don't know what or at least

3288
01:59:08,950 --> 01:59:07,440
the part of the agreement okay

3289
01:59:10,550 --> 01:59:08,960
but that's the part of you that is

3290
01:59:12,390 --> 01:59:10,560
conscious and it seems like the

3291
01:59:13,990 --> 01:59:12,400
consciousness is still in the left and

3292
01:59:17,109 --> 01:59:14,000
the right is in control but it's

3293
01:59:18,629 --> 01:59:17,119
unconsciously in control doing a process

3294
01:59:21,270 --> 01:59:18,639
so is that another way of thinking about

3295
01:59:24,550 --> 01:59:21,280
it or can you attribute consciousness to

3296
01:59:25,510 --> 01:59:24,560
the right hemisphere well i think

3297
01:59:27,750 --> 01:59:25,520
consciousness is

3298
01:59:28,870 --> 01:59:27,760
um it's not a thing it is of course a

3299
01:59:31,109 --> 01:59:28,880
process

3300
01:59:33,030 --> 01:59:31,119
and indeed the brain itself is not a

3301
01:59:36,070 --> 01:59:33,040
thing but a process

3302
01:59:36,629 --> 01:59:36,080
i mean every cell of your body is a

3303
01:59:40,550 --> 01:59:36,639
process

3304
01:59:42,950 --> 01:59:40,560
thing it looks like a thing because in

3305
01:59:45,030 --> 01:59:42,960
photograph it will do a diagram of it

3306
01:59:47,270 --> 01:59:45,040
but actually that thing that looks like

3307
01:59:47,990 --> 01:59:47,280
a cell membrane is actually very fluid

3308
01:59:49,589 --> 01:59:48,000
and it's

3309
01:59:51,430 --> 01:59:49,599
changing its position and its

3310
01:59:54,790 --> 01:59:51,440
composition all the time

3311
01:59:57,189 --> 01:59:54,800
so even a single cell is actually

3312
01:59:59,189 --> 01:59:57,199
a sea of things that are changing and

3313
02:00:01,030 --> 01:59:59,199
moving and interconnect

3314
02:00:02,790 --> 02:00:01,040
now the brain is like that on a

3315
02:00:04,310 --> 02:00:02,800
infinitely larger scale

3316
02:00:05,589 --> 02:00:04,320
i have a feeling that your new book this

3317
02:00:06,870 --> 02:00:05,599
is pretty much what it's talking about

3318
02:00:10,790 --> 02:00:06,880
is that there are no things

3319
02:00:14,950 --> 02:00:12,950
even yes it's not that i think there's

3320
02:00:16,070 --> 02:00:14,960
anything wrong with conceiving of things

3321
02:00:18,149 --> 02:00:16,080
as things i mean

3322
02:00:20,470 --> 02:00:18,159
for example this laptop on my lap is

3323
02:00:22,310 --> 02:00:20,480
perfectly properly described as a thing

3324
02:00:24,070 --> 02:00:22,320
in a certain way it's just a way in

3325
02:00:25,589 --> 02:00:24,080
which we encounter the world for certain

3326
02:00:26,870 --> 02:00:25,599
purposes a very good one

3327
02:00:28,470 --> 02:00:26,880
it's just that on the whole it's a

3328
02:00:30,629 --> 02:00:28,480
mistake to think that the world is

3329
02:00:33,830 --> 02:00:30,639
structured out of things anyway

3330
02:00:36,310 --> 02:00:33,840
um when it comes to

3331
02:00:37,669 --> 02:00:36,320
the consciousness and the brain i mean i

3332
02:00:41,189 --> 02:00:37,679
think of consciousness

3333
02:00:45,030 --> 02:00:41,199
as being sequestered for a while

3334
02:00:46,550 --> 02:00:45,040
in a kind of area um

3335
02:00:49,030 --> 02:00:46,560
and i sometimes think of this as like

3336
02:00:52,149 --> 02:00:49,040
the out pouching of a membrane i mean if

3337
02:00:55,270 --> 02:00:52,159
people remember looking down slides or

3338
02:00:58,709 --> 02:00:55,280
done microscopes or seeing slides of

3339
02:01:00,310 --> 02:00:58,719
um organic membranes of living tissue

3340
02:01:02,629 --> 02:01:00,320
they will often see that they have sort

3341
02:01:04,629 --> 02:01:02,639
of out pouchings called villi

3342
02:01:07,030 --> 02:01:04,639
or or that an amoeba has something

3343
02:01:08,629 --> 02:01:07,040
called a pseudopod that it can extend

3344
02:01:10,229 --> 02:01:08,639
and if you're in the middle of one of

3345
02:01:12,550 --> 02:01:10,239
those those

3346
02:01:14,310 --> 02:01:12,560
long things you can think you're

3347
02:01:15,910 --> 02:01:14,320
completely surrounded on all sides but

3348
02:01:17,189 --> 02:01:15,920
at the foot of it you're connected to

3349
02:01:19,270 --> 02:01:17,199
the mane

3350
02:01:21,990 --> 02:01:19,280
and i think that our consciousness is

3351
02:01:23,830 --> 02:01:22,000
quite rightly seems to us

3352
02:01:25,270 --> 02:01:23,840
um and it would be no good it had been

3353
02:01:26,870 --> 02:01:25,280
flooded with everything else going on in

3354
02:01:28,390 --> 02:01:26,880
the universal nothing original would

3355
02:01:29,350 --> 02:01:28,400
ever happen nothing would be creative

3356
02:01:31,430 --> 02:01:29,360
and i keep saying

3357
02:01:32,709 --> 02:01:31,440
the only way i can explain the cosmos is

3358
02:01:35,669 --> 02:01:32,719
through a deep

3359
02:01:36,790 --> 02:01:35,679
creative urge that's the most i can say

3360
02:01:39,189 --> 02:01:36,800
of it

3361
02:01:39,830 --> 02:01:39,199
and one that probably is connected to to

3362
02:01:43,910 --> 02:01:39,840
love

3363
02:01:46,470 --> 02:01:43,920
which is relationship anyway um

3364
02:01:48,790 --> 02:01:46,480
what i'm saying is that our

3365
02:01:49,990 --> 02:01:48,800
consciousness my consciousness whatever

3366
02:01:53,109 --> 02:01:50,000
it is my brain

3367
02:01:54,149 --> 02:01:53,119
is experiencing as consciousness is for

3368
02:01:56,229 --> 02:01:54,159
the moment

3369
02:01:57,910 --> 02:01:56,239
absolutely connected with my brain you

3370
02:01:59,270 --> 02:01:57,920
know if i get an injury in the brain to

3371
02:02:01,669 --> 02:01:59,280
affect the consciousness

3372
02:02:03,189 --> 02:02:01,679
and in in to go back to james's thing

3373
02:02:04,470 --> 02:02:03,199
about the vocal cords if he has an

3374
02:02:08,310 --> 02:02:04,480
injury to the vocal cords

3375
02:02:10,390 --> 02:02:08,320
his voice will disappear and so on so

3376
02:02:12,790 --> 02:02:10,400
but he he he and his thoughts and his

3377
02:02:15,510 --> 02:02:12,800
everything that were expressed through

3378
02:02:17,350 --> 02:02:15,520
that will carry on i i know it's not an

3379
02:02:20,310 --> 02:02:17,360
exact analogy another image i

3380
02:02:23,510 --> 02:02:20,320
i use sometimes is is of the the

3381
02:02:25,830 --> 02:02:23,520
consciousness in the brain

3382
02:02:27,510 --> 02:02:25,840
being able to divide and go around an

3383
02:02:29,669 --> 02:02:27,520
island so that

3384
02:02:31,270 --> 02:02:29,679
at a certain point in the flow of a

3385
02:02:33,109 --> 02:02:31,280
stream there may be two

3386
02:02:35,270 --> 02:02:33,119
seemingly quite distinct streams that

3387
02:02:37,270 --> 02:02:35,280
don't know much about one another

3388
02:02:39,109 --> 02:02:37,280
at that moment if you took a but it

3389
02:02:40,629 --> 02:02:39,119
moved 100 yards down the river you'd see

3390
02:02:42,070 --> 02:02:40,639
that they came together as they'd been

3391
02:02:43,750 --> 02:02:42,080
together before

3392
02:02:45,109 --> 02:02:43,760
and they weren't there for entirely

3393
02:02:45,990 --> 02:02:45,119
separate streams although it would be

3394
02:02:47,589 --> 02:02:46,000
perfectly reasonable

3395
02:02:49,430 --> 02:02:47,599
to talk of them as separate streams at

3396
02:02:52,310 --> 02:02:49,440
the time

3397
02:02:53,990 --> 02:02:52,320
but ultimately they are connected and of

3398
02:02:54,709 --> 02:02:54,000
course the image of the stream which is

3399
02:03:02,709 --> 02:02:54,719
the

3400
02:03:04,870 --> 02:03:02,719
all time favorite philosopher heraclitus

3401
02:03:06,470 --> 02:03:04,880
said was at the heart of you know all

3402
02:03:08,709 --> 02:03:06,480
everything flows

3403
02:03:10,149 --> 02:03:08,719
um it is a brilliant perception because

3404
02:03:12,550 --> 02:03:10,159
the stream both

3405
02:03:13,189 --> 02:03:12,560
remains as a stream that passes my house

3406
02:03:14,870 --> 02:03:13,199
and it

3407
02:03:16,870 --> 02:03:14,880
will be there tomorrow morning with luck

3408
02:03:18,790 --> 02:03:16,880
as it is now but

3409
02:03:20,550 --> 02:03:18,800
it's also true that it's changing all

3410
02:03:21,510 --> 02:03:20,560
the time and even changing its

3411
02:03:24,229 --> 02:03:21,520
boundaries

3412
02:03:25,510 --> 02:03:24,239
a little and what goes on in it and so

3413
02:03:27,189 --> 02:03:25,520
forth

3414
02:03:28,709 --> 02:03:27,199
i recall you talking about heraclitus

3415
02:03:31,109 --> 02:03:28,719
and saying that it is

3416
02:03:31,990 --> 02:03:31,119
both that the stream is the same and

3417
02:03:33,350 --> 02:03:32,000
that it's you know

3418
02:03:35,030 --> 02:03:33,360
that you don't step in the same river

3419
02:03:37,510 --> 02:03:35,040
twice it's more like exactly

3420
02:03:38,229 --> 02:03:37,520
you're it's more like those are two

3421
02:03:41,270 --> 02:03:38,239
different modes of

3422
02:03:43,350 --> 02:03:41,280
being with the river or the stream okay

3423
02:03:45,270 --> 02:03:43,360
now see that's different then the

3424
02:03:46,629 --> 02:03:45,280
standard analytical answer would be

3425
02:03:48,550 --> 02:03:46,639
the wittgenstein which is while you're

3426
02:03:50,229 --> 02:03:48,560
playing different language games

3427
02:03:51,589 --> 02:03:50,239
and so it depends on what you mean by so

3428
02:03:53,109 --> 02:03:51,599
and so but you're saying you've changed

3429
02:03:54,790 --> 02:03:53,119
it from the analytical to saying no no

3430
02:03:58,229 --> 02:03:54,800
it depends on how you be

3431
02:04:01,189 --> 02:03:58,239
okay yes mind outlining that briefly or

3432
02:04:05,910 --> 02:04:01,199
as lengthy as you like for the audience

3433
02:04:10,629 --> 02:04:07,510
in a way it's another way of saying

3434
02:04:12,870 --> 02:04:10,639
something i said before which is that

3435
02:04:16,629 --> 02:04:12,880
it's not

3436
02:04:20,310 --> 02:04:16,639
either or or both end

3437
02:04:22,870 --> 02:04:20,320
it's both either or and both and

3438
02:04:25,109 --> 02:04:22,880
so it is both true that the stream is

3439
02:04:29,350 --> 02:04:25,119
the same stream

3440
02:04:31,669 --> 02:04:29,360
and that it is a different stream

3441
02:04:34,149 --> 02:04:31,679
uh each of these has a sort of truth and

3442
02:04:35,510 --> 02:04:34,159
in a either orchestral mind you can go

3443
02:04:37,030 --> 02:04:35,520
well come on which is it

3444
02:04:39,109 --> 02:04:37,040
but in another way you can say it's

3445
02:04:42,470 --> 02:04:39,119
perfectly coherent that it is

3446
02:04:44,470 --> 02:04:42,480
both not actually because

3447
02:04:47,109 --> 02:04:44,480
in some part as i've just suggested with

3448
02:04:50,390 --> 02:04:47,119
an image of an island

3449
02:04:53,589 --> 02:04:50,400
but all the time it is

3450
02:04:56,950 --> 02:04:53,599
one and the other and

3451
02:05:00,069 --> 02:04:56,960
there are many things uh in in life

3452
02:05:02,310 --> 02:05:00,079
uh and in the wider

3453
02:05:03,830 --> 02:05:02,320
structure of things it seems to me that

3454
02:05:06,709 --> 02:05:03,840
have this dual

3455
02:05:08,629 --> 02:05:06,719
not dual quality exactly but this

3456
02:05:10,550 --> 02:05:08,639
unwillingness to

3457
02:05:11,830 --> 02:05:10,560
to finally split it into it's got to be

3458
02:05:13,910 --> 02:05:11,840
this way or that

3459
02:05:15,669 --> 02:05:13,920
in fact the further you go towards deep

3460
02:05:18,950 --> 02:05:15,679
things the more you find that

3461
02:05:20,629 --> 02:05:18,960
opposites um come together and i know

3462
02:05:23,109 --> 02:05:20,639
i'm hardly the first person to have said

3463
02:05:25,350 --> 02:05:23,119
that but it still needs to be said

3464
02:05:26,790 --> 02:05:25,360
isn't that still very much needs to be

3465
02:05:28,550 --> 02:05:26,800
said sorry

3466
02:05:30,470 --> 02:05:28,560
is that why you said at one point that

3467
02:05:31,910 --> 02:05:30,480
the logical mind while it reinforces

3468
02:05:33,669 --> 02:05:31,920
itself reinforcing

3469
02:05:36,790 --> 02:05:33,679
at its extreme you would get to the

3470
02:05:42,790 --> 02:05:39,430
well i think it to the extreme it ought

3471
02:05:44,709 --> 02:05:42,800
to be able to encounter its own bounds

3472
02:05:46,709 --> 02:05:44,719
so for example in a way girdle

3473
02:05:47,990 --> 02:05:46,719
demonstrated that a certain kind of

3474
02:05:50,790 --> 02:05:48,000
entirely logical

3475
02:05:52,229 --> 02:05:50,800
thinking eventually demonstrates its own

3476
02:05:55,589 --> 02:05:52,239
limitations

3477
02:05:56,229 --> 02:05:55,599
and pascal said that reason is feeble

3478
02:05:58,709 --> 02:05:56,239
indeed

3479
02:06:00,870 --> 02:05:58,719
if it cannot see its own limitations and

3480
02:06:02,790 --> 02:06:00,880
don't forget that pascal was a great

3481
02:06:07,030 --> 02:06:02,800
mathematician and logician

3482
02:06:10,229 --> 02:06:07,040
so um i mean as well as being

3483
02:06:12,870 --> 02:06:10,239
a great spiritual thinker so if you take

3484
02:06:16,149 --> 02:06:12,880
the left hemisphere thing far enough

3485
02:06:16,950 --> 02:06:16,159
it will encounter its own self coming

3486
02:06:18,950 --> 02:06:16,960
the other way

3487
02:06:20,629 --> 02:06:18,960
and we sometimes see this happening in

3488
02:06:21,750 --> 02:06:20,639
the world that if you take a certain

3489
02:06:24,870 --> 02:06:21,760
point of view

3490
02:06:27,589 --> 02:06:24,880
far enough um if you take um

3491
02:06:28,310 --> 02:06:27,599
an intolerant attitude that's dogmatic

3492
02:06:34,550 --> 02:06:28,320
and

3493
02:06:35,750 --> 02:06:34,560
a similar one on the left you can hardly

3494
02:06:37,669 --> 02:06:35,760
tell the difference it's in the

3495
02:06:38,709 --> 02:06:37,679
mentality it's in an approach to the

3496
02:06:41,350 --> 02:06:38,719
world

3497
02:06:42,870 --> 02:06:41,360
um and you know by going further and

3498
02:06:45,910 --> 02:06:42,880
further away to the

3499
02:06:47,990 --> 02:06:45,920
right or the left you don't avoid

3500
02:06:50,629 --> 02:06:48,000
the fate that you're trying to avoid the

3501
02:06:52,870 --> 02:06:50,639
nemesis will come to you if you insist

3502
02:06:54,069 --> 02:06:52,880
on having a black and white either or

3503
02:06:57,910 --> 02:06:54,079
way of thinking

3504
02:06:59,830 --> 02:06:57,920
so we must for our own sakes get back to

3505
02:07:02,790 --> 02:06:59,840
seeing that it's a both and

3506
02:07:04,950 --> 02:07:02,800
world in which you may have truth on

3507
02:07:06,790 --> 02:07:04,960
your side and i may have truth on my

3508
02:07:07,830 --> 02:07:06,800
side and we ought to respect one another

3509
02:07:11,270 --> 02:07:07,840
and talk about it

3510
02:07:15,270 --> 02:07:11,280
in a grown-up way not um

3511
02:07:15,589 --> 02:07:15,280
vilifying hating and silencing people

3512
02:07:17,430 --> 02:07:15,599
but

3513
02:07:18,950 --> 02:07:17,440
listening to people who say things

3514
02:07:21,430 --> 02:07:18,960
different from ourselves

3515
02:07:23,270 --> 02:07:21,440
that's so fundamental it's how our

3516
02:07:25,990 --> 02:07:23,280
civilization got to

3517
02:07:27,270 --> 02:07:26,000
have a culture and now we're throwing it

3518
02:07:29,910 --> 02:07:27,280
away

3519
02:07:30,629 --> 02:07:29,920
anyway sorry it does distress me very

3520
02:07:33,750 --> 02:07:30,639
much

3521
02:07:35,109 --> 02:07:33,760
this this sudden rise in in the not

3522
02:07:36,390 --> 02:07:35,119
being shades of meaning

3523
02:07:38,149 --> 02:07:36,400
i think it's to do with the way we're

3524
02:07:40,229 --> 02:07:38,159
educated i don't think we're taught any

3525
02:07:41,990 --> 02:07:40,239
longer to think

3526
02:07:43,350 --> 02:07:42,000
there's a phrase in greek in classical

3527
02:07:46,870 --> 02:07:43,360
greek

3528
02:07:49,990 --> 02:07:46,880
men and then many

3529
02:07:53,189 --> 02:07:50,000
of the great philosophers of greek

3530
02:07:56,310 --> 02:07:53,199
they would say men on the one hand this

3531
02:07:57,830 --> 02:07:56,320
there on the other hand that and in a

3532
02:07:59,669 --> 02:07:57,840
way that was part of the way i was

3533
02:08:01,830 --> 02:07:59,679
taught to think that you should see

3534
02:08:04,550 --> 02:08:01,840
yes as good in that but there's there's

3535
02:08:08,229 --> 02:08:04,560
also something else to be said that's

3536
02:08:11,350 --> 02:08:08,239
you know you need to be aware of and

3537
02:08:12,069 --> 02:08:11,360
i i i've in the last year or two come

3538
02:08:14,229 --> 02:08:12,079
across

3539
02:08:15,910 --> 02:08:14,239
a couple of zen sayings that i like very

3540
02:08:17,830 --> 02:08:15,920
much and i think i might write a book

3541
02:08:21,990 --> 02:08:17,840
with one or other title and one is

3542
02:08:23,910 --> 02:08:22,000
yes but and the other is not always so

3543
02:08:25,750 --> 02:08:23,920
and that really brings on back into the

3544
02:08:27,030 --> 02:08:25,760
world of the right hemisphere because

3545
02:08:29,910 --> 02:08:27,040
the right hemisphere

3546
02:08:30,390 --> 02:08:29,920
thinks yes but it's the one that always

3547
02:08:34,310 --> 02:08:30,400
says

3548
02:08:37,030 --> 02:08:34,320
uh yes but hang on it inhibits headlong

3549
02:08:39,030 --> 02:08:37,040
action it's actually more intelligent

3550
02:08:40,709 --> 02:08:39,040
and it literally is a more

3551
02:08:41,830 --> 02:08:40,719
intelligent hemisphere in the sense that

3552
02:08:43,109 --> 02:08:41,840
if you have damage to the left

3553
02:08:44,149 --> 02:08:43,119
hemisphere damage to the right

3554
02:08:48,470 --> 02:08:44,159
hemisphere

3555
02:08:50,310 --> 02:08:48,480
will drop your iq more than damage

3556
02:08:51,750 --> 02:08:50,320
oh that's extremely interesting i know

3557
02:08:54,069 --> 02:08:51,760
that you can function in the world more

3558
02:08:56,229 --> 02:08:54,079
adaptively if you have a left lesion

3559
02:08:58,229 --> 02:08:56,239
not the right lesion you can certainly

3560
02:08:59,910 --> 02:08:58,239
function more because your emotional

3561
02:09:01,589 --> 02:08:59,920
intelligence is not impaired and your

3562
02:09:02,149 --> 02:09:01,599
understanding of human beings is not in

3563
02:09:05,109 --> 02:09:02,159
bed

3564
02:09:06,149 --> 02:09:05,119
but your good old-fashioned cognitive

3565
02:09:09,189 --> 02:09:06,159
intelligence i

3566
02:09:10,550 --> 02:09:09,199
whatever it is iq measures is also more

3567
02:09:13,990 --> 02:09:10,560
highly dependent on

3568
02:09:17,589 --> 02:09:14,000
the right hemisphere than the left um

3569
02:09:21,270 --> 02:09:17,599
anyway there's a study by barbie at al

3570
02:09:23,910 --> 02:09:21,280
in 2013 where they looked at um

3571
02:09:25,990 --> 02:09:23,920
150 people who'd had strokes and had a

3572
02:09:28,390 --> 02:09:26,000
pre-morbid iq measurement

3573
02:09:29,510 --> 02:09:28,400
and looked at their post-morbid iq

3574
02:09:32,069 --> 02:09:29,520
measurement

3575
02:09:33,430 --> 02:09:32,079
and the and then they put the maps over

3576
02:09:35,589 --> 02:09:33,440
the top of one another

3577
02:09:37,589 --> 02:09:35,599
and where were the really key areas for

3578
02:09:39,430 --> 02:09:37,599
dropping your intelligence hardly any

3579
02:09:40,790 --> 02:09:39,440
was in the left hemisphere interesting

3580
02:09:42,470 --> 02:09:40,800
almost all of them are in the right

3581
02:09:45,990 --> 02:09:42,480
hemisphere which is not of course

3582
02:09:47,350 --> 02:09:46,000
again part of that bad old caricature

3583
02:09:48,629 --> 02:09:47,360
difference between the left and right

3584
02:09:50,470 --> 02:09:48,639
hemispheres well you know the right

3585
02:09:52,790 --> 02:09:50,480
hemisphere is all very well dear but

3586
02:09:55,990 --> 02:09:52,800
it's a bit you know kind of

3587
02:09:58,629 --> 02:09:56,000
not very reliable and silent but

3588
02:10:00,229 --> 02:09:58,639
yes but actually it's both more reliable

3589
02:10:02,310 --> 02:10:00,239
in the sense of more

3590
02:10:03,910 --> 02:10:02,320
likely to make the good decision and

3591
02:10:05,430 --> 02:10:03,920
more intelligent but anyway there we go

3592
02:10:07,510 --> 02:10:05,440
but let's say about inhibition because

3593
02:10:09,109 --> 02:10:07,520
you you you said to me earlier on and

3594
02:10:13,030 --> 02:10:09,119
then i actually i really must

3595
02:10:15,189 --> 02:10:13,040
stop i'm enjoying it so no no bless you

3596
02:10:16,310 --> 02:10:15,199
no i could i could talk to you all day i

3597
02:10:19,669 --> 02:10:16,320
wish we had time

3598
02:10:22,550 --> 02:10:19,679
um but i said early on

3599
02:10:24,470 --> 02:10:22,560
something about inhibition well here's a

3600
02:10:27,270 --> 02:10:24,480
fascinating thing

3601
02:10:28,390 --> 02:10:27,280
first of all the corpus callosum which

3602
02:10:29,750 --> 02:10:28,400
started up that's the

3603
02:10:31,510 --> 02:10:29,760
band of fibers that connects the two

3604
02:10:33,910 --> 02:10:31,520
hemispheres at the base of the brain

3605
02:10:35,510 --> 02:10:33,920
started out largely facilitatory in

3606
02:10:37,589 --> 02:10:35,520
other words it was largely

3607
02:10:39,830 --> 02:10:37,599
um conveying information from one to the

3608
02:10:41,830 --> 02:10:39,840
other hemispheres but it has now

3609
02:10:43,350 --> 02:10:41,840
come to the point where much of its

3610
02:10:46,470 --> 02:10:43,360
actual outcome

3611
02:10:47,510 --> 02:10:46,480
is inhibitory so much of what it is

3612
02:10:49,350 --> 02:10:47,520
doing is saying

3613
02:10:52,069 --> 02:10:49,360
you keep out of this you'll confuse the

3614
02:10:55,750 --> 02:10:52,079
picture i need to deal with this

3615
02:10:58,629 --> 02:10:55,760
and when the

3616
02:11:00,229 --> 02:10:58,639
mammalian brain evolved from you know

3617
02:11:02,709 --> 02:11:00,239
the mouse or whatever the shrew

3618
02:11:04,550 --> 02:11:02,719
up to ourselves if we can think of it as

3619
02:11:07,510 --> 02:11:04,560
a road upwards

3620
02:11:08,550 --> 02:11:07,520
um it involves more and more inhibitory

3621
02:11:13,189 --> 02:11:08,560
neurons

3622
02:11:15,510 --> 02:11:13,199
than other

3623
02:11:17,350 --> 02:11:15,520
non-primates and humans have more

3624
02:11:19,350 --> 02:11:17,360
inhibitory neurons than any other

3625
02:11:22,830 --> 02:11:19,360
primate

3626
02:11:26,470 --> 02:11:22,840
and the really important

3627
02:11:30,069 --> 02:11:26,480
neurons for uh

3628
02:11:33,030 --> 02:11:30,079
the effectiveness of carving experience

3629
02:11:33,589 --> 02:11:33,040
coming back to the idea that that as

3630
02:11:36,790 --> 02:11:33,599
we're like

3631
02:11:38,790 --> 02:11:36,800
carving as a statue in this in the stone

3632
02:11:41,510 --> 02:11:38,800
something only comes into being by the

3633
02:11:44,470 --> 02:11:41,520
the turning away of something else so

3634
02:11:45,830 --> 02:11:44,480
the inhibition of the this is discarding

3635
02:11:48,709 --> 02:11:45,840
something that might have been

3636
02:11:49,510 --> 02:11:48,719
brings the thing into me i'm getting

3637
02:11:51,510 --> 02:11:49,520
stopped

3638
02:11:52,550 --> 02:11:51,520
yeah sorry because you could you could

3639
02:11:54,709 --> 02:11:52,560
actually keep

3640
02:11:56,629 --> 02:11:54,719
i mean i could keep talking to very ages

3641
02:11:57,750 --> 02:11:56,639
it's lovely quick comment on that i was

3642
02:11:59,430 --> 02:11:57,760
always wondering if there's a more

3643
02:12:01,270 --> 02:11:59,440
precise marker of intelligence or

3644
02:12:02,550 --> 02:12:01,280
sophistication than the encephalization

3645
02:12:04,470 --> 02:12:02,560
quotient or the brain

3646
02:12:06,470 --> 02:12:04,480
to body mass ratio and i was wondering

3647
02:12:09,589 --> 02:12:06,480
if you can use the inhibitory neurons in

3648
02:12:13,109 --> 02:12:12,229
i i think any of the any of the known

3649
02:12:16,310 --> 02:12:13,119
markers

3650
02:12:18,470 --> 02:12:16,320
uh has a little to be said for it and

3651
02:12:19,990 --> 02:12:18,480
quite a lot to be said again right and

3652
02:12:21,270 --> 02:12:20,000
one of the things again you know think

3653
02:12:23,669 --> 02:12:21,280
about the crow

3654
02:12:26,310 --> 02:12:23,679
able to solve all kinds of problems a

3655
02:12:27,510 --> 02:12:26,320
brain the size of a pee

3656
02:12:29,669 --> 02:12:27,520
though birds do have a higher

3657
02:12:31,990 --> 02:12:29,679
encephalization quotient than us

3658
02:12:33,510 --> 02:12:32,000
well there's a higher encephalization

3659
02:12:36,709 --> 02:12:33,520
quotient that is correct

3660
02:12:38,950 --> 02:12:36,719
but nonetheless the actual

3661
02:12:40,470 --> 02:12:38,960
number of possible connections is very

3662
02:12:42,629 --> 02:12:40,480
much smaller which is probably why

3663
02:12:46,069 --> 02:12:42,639
they're not

3664
02:12:47,589 --> 02:12:46,079
building um building things that are

3665
02:12:51,350 --> 02:12:47,599
destroying the world

3666
02:12:53,510 --> 02:12:51,360
okay this one comes from sam ford

3667
02:12:55,189 --> 02:12:53,520
nice one i'm a big fan of ian

3668
02:12:55,990 --> 02:12:55,199
mcgillicrist i think he's perhaps one of

3669
02:12:58,149 --> 02:12:56,000
the most important

3670
02:13:00,069 --> 02:12:58,159
thinkers of recent times he cites jung a

3671
02:13:01,510 --> 02:13:00,079
few times in the master in his emissary

3672
02:13:03,270 --> 02:13:01,520
and mentioned ewing in his first talk

3673
02:13:05,030 --> 02:13:03,280
with peterson i've always wondered

3674
02:13:06,790 --> 02:13:05,040
how well he thinks jung's ideas about

3675
02:13:09,990 --> 02:13:06,800
the different aspects of the psyche

3676
02:13:11,990 --> 02:13:10,000
map on to his own he gives a little

3677
02:13:13,270 --> 02:13:12,000
pulse amble it seems to me that maybe

3678
02:13:15,189 --> 02:13:13,280
the persona ego

3679
02:13:16,310 --> 02:13:15,199
and the left hemisphere may match up to

3680
02:13:18,390 --> 02:13:16,320
some degree

3681
02:13:20,310 --> 02:13:18,400
and that the unknown greater personality

3682
02:13:22,709 --> 02:13:20,320
of self matches up to the

3683
02:13:24,629 --> 02:13:22,719
union of the left and the right

3684
02:13:26,790 --> 02:13:24,639
hemispheres maybe

3685
02:13:28,069 --> 02:13:26,800
either way i would like to know his

3686
02:13:31,510 --> 02:13:28,079
ideas on how

3687
02:13:33,910 --> 02:13:31,520
jung matches up with his well

3688
02:13:34,629 --> 02:13:33,920
that's a a very nice question and a good

3689
02:13:37,669 --> 02:13:34,639
one

3690
02:13:38,709 --> 02:13:37,679
um i have to say right away that i've

3691
02:13:42,149 --> 02:13:38,719
not really

3692
02:13:46,950 --> 02:13:42,159
made any systematic study of jung

3693
02:13:49,189 --> 02:13:46,960
i read um modern man in search of a soul

3694
02:13:51,750 --> 02:13:49,199
when i was a teenager and it struck me

3695
02:13:55,189 --> 02:13:51,760
as a very important and powerful book

3696
02:13:57,589 --> 02:13:55,199
and since then i have i've read bits and

3697
02:13:59,669 --> 02:13:57,599
pieces here and there so i don't really

3698
02:14:00,790 --> 02:13:59,679
i wouldn't say i'm a paid up jungian or

3699
02:14:03,910 --> 02:14:00,800
anything like that

3700
02:14:04,950 --> 02:14:03,920
although i do find that uh jungians like

3701
02:14:07,669 --> 02:14:04,960
buddhists

3702
02:14:08,149 --> 02:14:07,679
and i'm also not a buddhist although i

3703
02:14:10,069 --> 02:14:08,159
have

3704
02:14:11,589 --> 02:14:10,079
great sympathy with both jungians and

3705
02:14:14,629 --> 02:14:11,599
buddhists and

3706
02:14:15,510 --> 02:14:14,639
they seem to come to my my talks and

3707
02:14:18,310 --> 02:14:15,520
write to me

3708
02:14:20,550 --> 02:14:18,320
so obviously in their probably better

3709
02:14:22,629 --> 02:14:20,560
informed minds

3710
02:14:25,589 --> 02:14:22,639
whatever it is i'm saying has resonances

3711
02:14:28,709 --> 02:14:25,599
and i'm always interested in those

3712
02:14:29,910 --> 02:14:28,719
i think the the key thing about jung for

3713
02:14:31,830 --> 02:14:29,920
me

3714
02:14:33,030 --> 02:14:31,840
i can't really talk definitively about

3715
02:14:35,669 --> 02:14:33,040
things like the

3716
02:14:37,510 --> 02:14:35,679
you know the ego and the animus and the

3717
02:14:40,790 --> 02:14:37,520
anima and all these things but

3718
02:14:43,830 --> 02:14:40,800
but i can say that his general

3719
02:14:46,629 --> 02:14:43,840
world picture is very sympathetic

3720
02:14:48,149 --> 02:14:46,639
from my point of view and one of the

3721
02:14:50,950 --> 02:14:48,159
most important points

3722
02:14:52,830 --> 02:14:50,960
which is something that he shared with

3723
02:14:57,189 --> 02:14:52,840
goethe

3724
02:14:59,270 --> 02:14:57,199
um was this sense that opposites

3725
02:15:01,669 --> 02:14:59,280
uh come together and that's something

3726
02:15:03,750 --> 02:15:01,679
that i do strongly believe as i

3727
02:15:04,870 --> 02:15:03,760
i've said earlier when we were talking

3728
02:15:08,069 --> 02:15:04,880
about that

3729
02:15:09,109 --> 02:15:08,079
um so yeah but i'm afraid i'm not really

3730
02:15:11,350 --> 02:15:09,119
in a position to

3731
02:15:12,470 --> 02:15:11,360
it's slightly like the freudian question

3732
02:15:14,629 --> 02:15:12,480
you asked about

3733
02:15:16,870 --> 02:15:14,639
you know can we line up the id and the

3734
02:15:21,430 --> 02:15:16,880
eager and the super ego with

3735
02:15:23,189 --> 02:15:21,440
i think to an extent you can but

3736
02:15:25,109 --> 02:15:23,199
and i'm sure that you know it's possible

3737
02:15:28,709 --> 02:15:25,119
to make good analogies

3738
02:15:30,629 --> 02:15:28,719
um between jung's uh

3739
02:15:31,990 --> 02:15:30,639
work which i don't you know as i say i

3740
02:15:35,109 --> 02:15:32,000
don't know the detail

3741
02:15:36,069 --> 02:15:35,119
of um i've always thought of him as a

3742
02:15:39,510 --> 02:15:36,079
very

3743
02:15:41,030 --> 02:15:39,520
um sympathetic soul basically um

3744
02:15:44,069 --> 02:15:41,040
so i'm afraid i'm going to have to

3745
02:15:46,390 --> 02:15:44,079
disappoint sam there

3746
02:15:48,229 --> 02:15:46,400
but the thing that interests me though

3747
02:15:50,069 --> 02:15:48,239
is you know that although

3748
02:15:51,750 --> 02:15:50,079
you see looking back over history there

3749
02:15:54,709 --> 02:15:51,760
are so many people

3750
02:15:56,550 --> 02:15:54,719
who uh long before even freud and jung

3751
02:15:59,270 --> 02:15:56,560
and who knew even less about

3752
02:16:00,709 --> 02:15:59,280
the structure of the brain than they did

3753
02:16:03,990 --> 02:16:00,719
have posited

3754
02:16:06,069 --> 02:16:04,000
something very like what i'm think i've

3755
02:16:08,870 --> 02:16:06,079
discovered and i'm promulgating

3756
02:16:10,229 --> 02:16:08,880
from the basis of modern neuroscience

3757
02:16:12,390 --> 02:16:10,239
it's very exciting

3758
02:16:15,510 --> 02:16:12,400
that in a way these these great

3759
02:16:18,550 --> 02:16:15,520
archetypes these images from

3760
02:16:20,390 --> 02:16:18,560
wise minds in the past they they had

3761
02:16:23,109 --> 02:16:20,400
intuitive understanding

3762
02:16:25,430 --> 02:16:23,119
of something that can now be more

3763
02:16:26,870 --> 02:16:25,440
objectively demonstrated

3764
02:16:29,189 --> 02:16:26,880
you mentioned once in your book about

3765
02:16:30,790 --> 02:16:29,199
the greeks that they had

3766
02:16:32,309 --> 02:16:30,800
some intimation about the left and the

3767
02:16:35,190 --> 02:16:32,319
right hemisphere

3768
02:16:36,469 --> 02:16:35,200
either one is for i think perception of

3769
02:16:39,750 --> 02:16:36,479
the other one was for

3770
02:16:40,790 --> 02:16:39,760
understanding that's right yes and and

3771
02:16:43,910 --> 02:16:40,800
it's fascinating

3772
02:16:45,270 --> 02:16:43,920
um that so long ago people were

3773
02:16:49,030 --> 02:16:45,280
speculating on the

3774
02:16:49,750 --> 02:16:49,040
the the um the uses of the two parts of

3775
02:16:51,349 --> 02:16:49,760
the brain

3776
02:16:53,270 --> 02:16:51,359
i mean what one has to remember is that

3777
02:16:54,950 --> 02:16:53,280
in in galen who was you know

3778
02:16:56,469 --> 02:16:54,960
one of the first great physicians he

3779
02:16:57,509 --> 02:16:56,479
thought that the brain was actually a

3780
02:16:59,509 --> 02:16:57,519
kind of um

3781
02:17:00,549 --> 02:16:59,519
air conditioning system he thought that

3782
02:17:06,389 --> 02:17:00,559
it

3783
02:17:07,589 --> 02:17:06,399
so clearly they were very long way off

3784
02:17:11,429 --> 02:17:07,599
modern science but

3785
02:17:14,469 --> 02:17:11,439
i i do cite and footnote the sources for

3786
02:17:16,709 --> 02:17:14,479
i think the third century a.d

3787
02:17:17,669 --> 02:17:16,719
suggestions that the right hemisphere's

3788
02:17:19,910 --> 02:17:17,679
perception

3789
02:17:21,030 --> 02:17:19,920
and the left for understanding now

3790
02:17:22,309 --> 02:17:21,040
unfortunately

3791
02:17:24,389 --> 02:17:22,319
it's actually true that the right

3792
02:17:25,750 --> 02:17:24,399
hemisphere is better at both perceiving

3793
02:17:27,589 --> 02:17:25,760
and understanding

3794
02:17:29,349 --> 02:17:27,599
but one sort of knows what was being got

3795
02:17:31,110 --> 02:17:29,359
at the right hemisphere is definitely

3796
02:17:33,110 --> 02:17:31,120
better at perception

3797
02:17:34,469 --> 02:17:33,120
and at the sort of taking of things as

3798
02:17:37,589 --> 02:17:34,479
reality rather than

3799
02:17:39,589 --> 02:17:37,599
um having an idea about them in the way

3800
02:17:41,669 --> 02:17:39,599
that the left hemisphere has so

3801
02:17:43,910 --> 02:17:41,679
you know it is that is also remarkable

3802
02:17:45,669 --> 02:17:43,920
thank you for reminding me yeah

3803
02:17:48,070 --> 02:17:45,679
well thank you for pointing it out i

3804
02:17:50,230 --> 02:17:48,080
make extensive notes

3805
02:17:51,750 --> 02:17:50,240
okay that's another reason why i was

3806
02:17:53,429 --> 02:17:51,760
telling you before that this podcast is

3807
02:17:55,750 --> 02:17:53,439
killing me in many ways

3808
02:17:56,549 --> 02:17:55,760
in one way in a salutary manner

3809
02:17:58,389 --> 02:17:56,559
hopefully

3810
02:18:00,709 --> 02:17:58,399
in in one way it's destabilizing in

3811
02:18:02,389 --> 02:18:00,719
another it takes so much preparation and

3812
02:18:05,270 --> 02:18:02,399
hopefully the preparation shows

3813
02:18:06,389 --> 02:18:05,280
in the questions and um sometimes i read

3814
02:18:08,469 --> 02:18:06,399
the comments and

3815
02:18:09,589 --> 02:18:08,479
often they indicate that they do but i

3816
02:18:11,990 --> 02:18:09,599
always wonder how much am i

3817
02:18:15,190 --> 02:18:12,000
overextending myself

3818
02:18:18,549 --> 02:18:15,200
no no well look i mean let me say

3819
02:18:20,790 --> 02:18:18,559
quite genuinely that you do

3820
02:18:22,549 --> 02:18:20,800
your your questions are some of the best

3821
02:18:25,429 --> 02:18:22,559
um

3822
02:18:26,309 --> 02:18:25,439
they target very important areas and no

3823
02:18:27,990 --> 02:18:26,319
i think you're

3824
02:18:29,830 --> 02:18:28,000
you know from that point of view you're

3825
02:18:30,790 --> 02:18:29,840
one of the best interviewers that i've

3826
02:18:33,750 --> 02:18:30,800
i've come across

3827
02:18:34,950 --> 02:18:33,760
so thank you okay well thank you thank

3828
02:18:36,709 --> 02:18:34,960
you man

3829
02:18:38,469 --> 02:18:36,719
it makes me bless i'm brown you can't

3830
02:18:41,910 --> 02:18:38,479
tell but

3831
02:18:43,750 --> 02:18:41,920
but i am blushing okay joanne dong

3832
02:18:45,669 --> 02:18:43,760
says can you ask megilicrist about the

3833
02:18:47,669 --> 02:18:45,679
substitution effect from psychology

3834
02:18:48,870 --> 02:18:47,679
and its impact on the imbalance between

3835
02:18:51,110 --> 02:18:48,880
the right and the left

3836
02:18:52,709 --> 02:18:51,120
hemispheres over the course of western

3837
02:18:55,190 --> 02:18:52,719
civilization

3838
02:18:55,830 --> 02:18:55,200
daniel kenneman states in thinking fast

3839
02:18:57,750 --> 02:18:55,840
and slow

3840
02:18:59,589 --> 02:18:57,760
when faced with a difficult question we

3841
02:19:01,830 --> 02:18:59,599
often answer an easier one instead

3842
02:19:04,950 --> 02:19:01,840
without noticing the substitution thank

3843
02:19:04,960 --> 02:19:09,509
well yes uh

3844
02:19:13,830 --> 02:19:12,150
well first of all let me say about uh

3845
02:19:16,549 --> 02:19:13,840
daniel kahneman and

3846
02:19:18,469 --> 02:19:16,559
and the hemisphere hypothesis uh it

3847
02:19:20,709 --> 02:19:18,479
would be wrong to suppose that when he

3848
02:19:23,669 --> 02:19:20,719
talks about thinking

3849
02:19:25,190 --> 02:19:23,679
fast and slow he's talking about the two

3850
02:19:29,190 --> 02:19:25,200
hemispheres

3851
02:19:31,429 --> 02:19:29,200
um in a conversation that we had

3852
02:19:32,230 --> 02:19:31,439
he confirmed my impression that he's

3853
02:19:35,030 --> 02:19:32,240
talking about

3854
02:19:35,509 --> 02:19:35,040
more top brain versus bottom brain than

3855
02:19:39,589 --> 02:19:35,519
the

3856
02:19:42,309 --> 02:19:39,599
of both hemispheres

3857
02:19:44,790 --> 02:19:42,319
taking more time being more thorough and

3858
02:19:47,669 --> 02:19:44,800
the posterior cortex of both hemispheres

3859
02:19:49,510 --> 02:19:47,679
being more likely to be

3860
02:19:52,630 --> 02:19:49,520
jumping to conclusions or going for the

3861
02:19:54,710 --> 02:19:52,640
familiar however having said that

3862
02:19:56,309 --> 02:19:54,720
your questioner does touch on something

3863
02:19:59,510 --> 02:19:56,319
very interesting

3864
02:20:03,030 --> 02:19:59,520
because research shows that

3865
02:20:04,150 --> 02:20:03,040
um the the left hemisphere jumps to

3866
02:20:07,590 --> 02:20:04,160
conclusions

3867
02:20:09,349 --> 02:20:07,600
and tends to see what it wants to see

3868
02:20:12,070 --> 02:20:09,359
in what is being presented or what is

3869
02:20:14,950 --> 02:20:12,080
being asked it will actually ignore

3870
02:20:16,950 --> 02:20:14,960
or just not hear or just not see things

3871
02:20:19,830 --> 02:20:16,960
that invoke something that it's not

3872
02:20:23,670 --> 02:20:19,840
interested in or not aware of

3873
02:20:26,630 --> 02:20:23,680
so in that sense uh our tendency to

3874
02:20:28,630 --> 02:20:26,640
give a fast answer to something we can

3875
02:20:29,990 --> 02:20:28,640
answer rather than a slower more

3876
02:20:33,030 --> 02:20:30,000
thoughtful answer

3877
02:20:36,150 --> 02:20:33,040
to something that would be

3878
02:20:37,030 --> 02:20:36,160
required deeper reflection that is a

3879
02:20:38,870 --> 02:20:37,040
left right

3880
02:20:42,230 --> 02:20:38,880
distinction so the left hemisphere being

3881
02:20:43,830 --> 02:20:42,240
the more superficial and quick and dirty

3882
02:20:45,429 --> 02:20:43,840
hemisphere on this and the right

3883
02:20:48,790 --> 02:20:45,439
hemisphere having

3884
02:20:51,429 --> 02:20:48,800
um more of a capacity to see

3885
02:20:53,510 --> 02:20:51,439
several sides to something to think more

3886
02:20:54,870 --> 02:20:53,520
carefully about it and to inhibit the

3887
02:20:57,750 --> 02:20:54,880
immediate response of the left

3888
02:21:02,469 --> 02:21:00,950
okay siren dudley hopefully i'm

3889
02:21:03,190 --> 02:21:02,479
pronouncing that correctly says by

3890
02:21:04,630 --> 02:21:03,200
positing an

3891
02:21:07,030 --> 02:21:04,640
absolute division between the brain

3892
02:21:09,670 --> 02:21:07,040
hemispheres aren't we already thereby

3893
02:21:11,030 --> 02:21:09,680
engaged in holy left brain thinking in

3894
02:21:13,110 --> 02:21:11,040
other words isn't the notion of

3895
02:21:14,790 --> 02:21:13,120
different sides quote unquote

3896
02:21:18,230 --> 02:21:14,800
confined to only one side of the brain

3897
02:21:21,830 --> 02:21:20,710
yes i i mean sorry the answer to that

3898
02:21:25,670 --> 02:21:21,840
question is no

3899
02:21:26,070 --> 02:21:25,680
um i i have talked about this quite a

3900
02:21:28,469 --> 02:21:26,080
bit

3901
02:21:29,270 --> 02:21:28,479
i've certainly addressed it in the in

3902
02:21:35,270 --> 02:21:29,280
the

3903
02:21:36,630 --> 02:21:35,280
new edition that came out a year or so

3904
02:21:39,030 --> 02:21:36,640
ago but

3905
02:21:40,469 --> 02:21:39,040
i do also address it in in the matter

3906
02:21:44,790 --> 02:21:40,479
with things

3907
02:21:46,870 --> 02:21:44,800
um there's a sort of sense that you know

3908
02:21:48,389 --> 02:21:46,880
you're dichotomizing aren't you people

3909
02:21:51,590 --> 02:21:48,399
sort of say that

3910
02:21:52,230 --> 02:21:51,600
but um i remember your exact line about

3911
02:21:54,230 --> 02:21:52,240
this

3912
02:21:56,630 --> 02:21:54,240
because sorry to interrupt for the

3913
02:21:58,230 --> 02:21:56,640
people listening the preface alone of

3914
02:22:01,270 --> 02:21:58,240
the master and its emissary

3915
02:22:02,389 --> 02:22:01,280
is already one of my favorite books of

3916
02:22:04,790 --> 02:22:02,399
the past

3917
02:22:06,469 --> 02:22:04,800
few years the preface alone i remember

3918
02:22:07,590 --> 02:22:06,479
listening to the preface i had to listen

3919
02:22:10,070 --> 02:22:07,600
to it because i

3920
02:22:11,190 --> 02:22:10,080
i was driving and so on so the preface

3921
02:22:15,030 --> 02:22:11,200
alone

3922
02:22:16,790 --> 02:22:15,040
had me pausing so often and thinking and

3923
02:22:18,309 --> 02:22:16,800
i'm just wondering how the heck is ian

3924
02:22:24,630 --> 02:22:18,319
coming up with this

3925
02:22:28,469 --> 02:22:26,309
i would point out that there is the

3926
02:22:32,150 --> 02:22:28,479
preface i'm talking about is for the

3927
02:22:35,270 --> 02:22:32,160
the new version right 2019 onwards

3928
02:22:36,309 --> 02:22:35,280
it has a green cover so if your version

3929
02:22:38,469 --> 02:22:36,319
doesn't have the green

3930
02:22:40,230 --> 02:22:38,479
cover then that doesn't have the preface

3931
02:22:42,070 --> 02:22:40,240
but it's very nice that you say that

3932
02:22:43,270 --> 02:22:42,080
because actually somebody sent me a very

3933
02:22:44,710 --> 02:22:43,280
nice email

3934
02:22:47,349 --> 02:22:44,720
saying man i've just read your

3935
02:22:49,510 --> 02:22:47,359
preference and you know

3936
02:22:51,670 --> 02:22:49,520
it's worth buying the book just for that

3937
02:22:54,469 --> 02:22:51,680
so it's almost exactly what you said

3938
02:22:56,309 --> 02:22:54,479
yeah so but i try i try to i try to

3939
02:22:59,590 --> 02:22:56,319
encapsulate you know some of the

3940
02:23:02,150 --> 02:22:59,600
the questions and answers there

3941
02:23:04,389 --> 02:23:02,160
but you know in life there are things

3942
02:23:06,550 --> 02:23:04,399
that are false dichotomies and there are

3943
02:23:08,790 --> 02:23:06,560
some that are genuine dichotomies even

3944
02:23:11,830 --> 02:23:08,800
if there is a degree of overlap

3945
02:23:12,630 --> 02:23:11,840
so for example you know um bad drivers

3946
02:23:14,870 --> 02:23:12,640
versus

3947
02:23:17,110 --> 02:23:14,880
good drivers that's a false dichotomy i

3948
02:23:19,349 --> 02:23:17,120
mean it's a matter of degree and it's

3949
02:23:21,750 --> 02:23:19,359
all on the spectrum

3950
02:23:22,870 --> 02:23:21,760
and then you could take um some other

3951
02:23:26,950 --> 02:23:22,880
things like

3952
02:23:27,270 --> 02:23:26,960
um being a tree or being an animal you

3953
02:23:30,230 --> 02:23:27,280
know

3954
02:23:32,630 --> 02:23:30,240
um there is a kind of pond life that's

3955
02:23:35,030 --> 02:23:32,640
very hard to say whether it's actually a

3956
02:23:36,630 --> 02:23:35,040
a plant or an animal but nonetheless on

3957
02:23:38,230 --> 02:23:36,640
the whole we can tell the difference

3958
02:23:41,590 --> 02:23:38,240
between an elephant

3959
02:23:43,750 --> 02:23:41,600
and a tree and and this is the

3960
02:23:44,710 --> 02:23:43,760
this is a perfectly good dichotomy if

3961
02:23:47,030 --> 02:23:44,720
you like

3962
02:23:48,469 --> 02:23:47,040
so what i would say about this the

3963
02:23:51,190 --> 02:23:48,479
divide between the brain

3964
02:23:51,910 --> 02:23:51,200
is that i always start off very early in

3965
02:23:54,150 --> 02:23:51,920
any book

3966
02:23:55,990 --> 02:23:54,160
i'm talking about it and say yeah there

3967
02:23:58,870 --> 02:23:56,000
is a certain degree of overlap

3968
02:24:00,309 --> 02:23:58,880
that's necessary and important but

3969
02:24:01,990 --> 02:24:00,319
nonetheless um

3970
02:24:04,150 --> 02:24:02,000
don't reject the fact that there are

3971
02:24:05,830 --> 02:24:04,160
very startling differences

3972
02:24:07,429 --> 02:24:05,840
just because you have to have you happen

3973
02:24:09,990 --> 02:24:07,439
to think that

3974
02:24:11,990 --> 02:24:10,000
dichotomies are impossible it's you know

3975
02:24:13,510 --> 02:24:12,000
dichotomies can be simple but it can

3976
02:24:17,349 --> 02:24:13,520
also be simplistic

3977
02:24:20,550 --> 02:24:17,359
to reject a dichotomy if there is one

3978
02:24:22,389 --> 02:24:20,560
and in this case there is one and let me

3979
02:24:23,990 --> 02:24:22,399
just repeat because people don't find

3980
02:24:27,270 --> 02:24:24,000
this easy to take in

3981
02:24:30,389 --> 02:24:27,280
there is overlap there is overlap

3982
02:24:34,070 --> 02:24:30,399
and an example i give is um

3983
02:24:37,429 --> 02:24:34,080
between the culture and climate

3984
02:24:42,230 --> 02:24:37,439
of iceland and indonesia okay

3985
02:24:46,230 --> 02:24:42,240
so iceland's a very cold country

3986
02:24:49,030 --> 02:24:46,240
and its landscape its vegetation

3987
02:24:50,070 --> 02:24:49,040
even the the the kind of temperament of

3988
02:24:52,630 --> 02:24:50,080
the people

3989
02:24:53,510 --> 02:24:52,640
is bound to have been molded by its its

3990
02:25:01,429 --> 02:24:53,520
climate

3991
02:25:03,590 --> 02:25:01,439
and again the vegetation and the history

3992
02:25:04,550 --> 02:25:03,600
and the culture and even probably the

3993
02:25:07,670 --> 02:25:04,560
temperament

3994
02:25:10,710 --> 02:25:07,680
is different but it is still true

3995
02:25:11,670 --> 02:25:10,720
that the hottest year ever recorded the

3996
02:25:15,110 --> 02:25:11,680
annual average

3997
02:25:17,590 --> 02:25:15,120
temperature in iceland was higher

3998
02:25:18,150 --> 02:25:17,600
than the lowest average temperature for

3999
02:25:20,469 --> 02:25:18,160
the year

4000
02:25:22,150 --> 02:25:20,479
ever recorded in indonesia so it's

4001
02:25:22,790 --> 02:25:22,160
perfectly possible for there to be

4002
02:25:25,510 --> 02:25:22,800
overlap

4003
02:25:27,030 --> 02:25:25,520
in things that are radically different

4004
02:25:32,950 --> 02:25:27,040
so

4005
02:25:36,870 --> 02:25:32,960
me on that one

4006
02:25:38,790 --> 02:25:36,880
all right actually that line

4007
02:25:40,230 --> 02:25:38,800
it's burned into my memory the line is

4008
02:25:41,910 --> 02:25:40,240
people don't like dichotomies because

4009
02:25:43,270 --> 02:25:41,920
they say dichotomies are simplistic but

4010
02:25:45,349 --> 02:25:43,280
it's also simplistic to dismiss

4011
02:25:47,110 --> 02:25:45,359
something just because it's a dichotomy

4012
02:25:48,630 --> 02:25:47,120
now that one i'm gonna take i will

4013
02:25:49,349 --> 02:25:48,640
credit you don't worry but i'm doing

4014
02:25:51,030 --> 02:25:49,359
interviews

4015
02:25:52,469 --> 02:25:51,040
i'm being interviewed because i'm

4016
02:25:54,710 --> 02:25:52,479
putting out a film soon

4017
02:25:55,590 --> 02:25:54,720
on the extreme left what makes the

4018
02:25:58,790 --> 02:25:55,600
extreme left

4019
02:26:00,230 --> 02:25:58,800
extreme on the political spectrum right

4020
02:26:02,230 --> 02:26:00,240
not because i'm a right winger

4021
02:26:03,670 --> 02:26:02,240
in fact i'm apolitical but because it's

4022
02:26:05,429 --> 02:26:03,680
it's difficult to analyze what's

4023
02:26:06,230 --> 02:26:05,439
extremism on the left extremism on the

4024
02:26:09,590 --> 02:26:06,240
right is just

4025
02:26:11,830 --> 02:26:09,600
it's it's blatant anyway i

4026
02:26:13,349 --> 02:26:11,840
well i think main stream on the left is

4027
02:26:15,910 --> 02:26:13,359
is also blatant but

4028
02:26:16,790 --> 02:26:15,920
and they as i said earlier on when we

4029
02:26:19,429 --> 02:26:16,800
were talking

4030
02:26:21,110 --> 02:26:19,439
they have an enormous amount in common

4031
02:26:22,710 --> 02:26:21,120
right exactly exactly so that's why i

4032
02:26:24,710 --> 02:26:22,720
was like okay that's the horse

4033
02:26:26,070 --> 02:26:24,720
shoe theory i believe in a nutshell and

4034
02:26:27,590 --> 02:26:26,080
that's interesting because the further

4035
02:26:29,349 --> 02:26:27,600
you run away from a point the closer you

4036
02:26:31,910 --> 02:26:29,359
get to it after a certain location

4037
02:26:34,070 --> 02:26:31,920
so it's like a circle right in some

4038
02:26:35,670 --> 02:26:34,080
cases that is absolutely true yeah

4039
02:26:37,110 --> 02:26:35,680
maybe you want to quickly comment this

4040
02:26:38,230 --> 02:26:37,120
is something i was thinking about as i

4041
02:26:40,309 --> 02:26:38,240
was reading your book

4042
02:26:42,309 --> 02:26:40,319
is is there a way of mapping the

4043
02:26:43,990 --> 02:26:42,319
hemisphere differences the left right

4044
02:26:45,349 --> 02:26:44,000
onto our left right spectrum maybe it's

4045
02:26:46,550 --> 02:26:45,359
inverted like the right brain is the

4046
02:26:48,070 --> 02:26:46,560
left and the

4047
02:26:50,070 --> 02:26:48,080
and the reason i was thinking about this

4048
02:26:53,510 --> 02:26:50,080
is because while the french revolution

4049
02:26:55,030 --> 02:26:53,520
is posed as a left phenomenon and they

4050
02:26:57,110 --> 02:26:55,040
espoused rationality and so on but

4051
02:27:00,389 --> 02:26:57,120
that's a left brain but then

4052
02:27:02,070 --> 02:27:00,399
on the other hand they loved russoian

4053
02:27:03,910 --> 02:27:02,080
thinking which seems to me to be more

4054
02:27:06,070 --> 02:27:03,920
romantic which is right-brained

4055
02:27:07,910 --> 02:27:06,080
so there's many contradictions i see and

4056
02:27:09,429 --> 02:27:07,920
i couldn't map them on directly and i

4057
02:27:11,670 --> 02:27:09,439
was wondering if you had any experience

4058
02:27:14,070 --> 02:27:11,680
or thought about this well

4059
02:27:15,670 --> 02:27:14,080
well to come back to the previous

4060
02:27:17,270 --> 02:27:15,680
question this is a case where it would

4061
02:27:21,190 --> 02:27:17,280
be simplistic

4062
02:27:22,150 --> 02:27:21,200
so any culture is a mixture of many

4063
02:27:24,550 --> 02:27:22,160
things

4064
02:27:26,550 --> 02:27:24,560
and what i say about this is easily to

4065
02:27:28,870 --> 02:27:26,560
identify

4066
02:27:30,389 --> 02:27:28,880
right hemisphere style thinkers on the

4067
02:27:32,550 --> 02:27:30,399
right and on the left

4068
02:27:34,469 --> 02:27:32,560
and left hemisphere style thinkers on

4069
02:27:36,070 --> 02:27:34,479
the right and on the left

4070
02:27:39,429 --> 02:27:36,080
so that you get thinkers that are

4071
02:27:43,190 --> 02:27:39,439
dogmatic uncharitable

4072
02:27:43,990 --> 02:27:43,200
angry mr right knows what's good for

4073
02:27:46,710 --> 02:27:44,000
people

4074
02:27:48,309 --> 02:27:46,720
you know that is your left hemisphere

4075
02:27:50,469 --> 02:27:48,319
type and there's plenty of them on the

4076
02:27:53,349 --> 02:27:50,479
left just as there are on the right

4077
02:27:54,950 --> 02:27:53,359
and there are thoughtful flexible

4078
02:27:57,270 --> 02:27:54,960
compassionate people

4079
02:27:58,309 --> 02:27:57,280
who don't treat people as belonging to

4080
02:28:00,630 --> 02:27:58,319
boxes or

4081
02:28:01,670 --> 02:28:00,640
categories or ticking something but are

4082
02:28:04,389 --> 02:28:01,680
actually

4083
02:28:06,230 --> 02:28:04,399
complicated human individuals with many

4084
02:28:08,550 --> 02:28:06,240
many facets to their

4085
02:28:09,270 --> 02:28:08,560
their experience to their personality

4086
02:28:13,670 --> 02:28:09,280
now that

4087
02:28:17,910 --> 02:28:16,070
it's quite coherent i think to say that

4088
02:28:21,830 --> 02:28:17,920
no it doesn't map onto

4089
02:28:26,070 --> 02:28:23,270
in fact in some ways you know the

4090
02:28:27,429 --> 02:28:26,080
interesting thing is if anything the

4091
02:28:29,270 --> 02:28:27,439
left hemisphere

4092
02:28:30,950 --> 02:28:29,280
is much more theoretical and the right

4093
02:28:32,230 --> 02:28:30,960
hemisphere is much more interested in

4094
02:28:34,870 --> 02:28:32,240
experience

4095
02:28:37,030 --> 02:28:34,880
and one way of thinking about the divide

4096
02:28:40,469 --> 02:28:37,040
between the political spectrum is that

4097
02:28:44,389 --> 02:28:40,479
the left end of it tends to prioritize

4098
02:28:45,349 --> 02:28:44,399
theories over the experience of history

4099
02:28:48,150 --> 02:28:45,359
of culture

4100
02:28:49,110 --> 02:28:48,160
whereas the right wing or the writer

4101
02:28:52,870 --> 02:28:49,120
wing of

4102
02:28:54,710 --> 02:28:52,880
of thinking tends to be very interested

4103
02:28:57,750 --> 02:28:54,720
in history and culture

4104
02:28:59,830 --> 02:28:57,760
and context and embodiment not in a

4105
02:29:00,389 --> 02:28:59,840
theory that on paper looks like it's

4106
02:29:03,590 --> 02:29:00,399
going to make

4107
02:29:06,070 --> 02:29:03,600
everybody happy so i think

4108
02:29:07,670 --> 02:29:06,080
there is an argument that if you had to

4109
02:29:10,230 --> 02:29:07,680
put it either way

4110
02:29:10,870 --> 02:29:10,240
i would associate the right spectrum

4111
02:29:12,469 --> 02:29:10,880
with

4112
02:29:14,550 --> 02:29:12,479
the right hemisphere and the left

4113
02:29:17,990 --> 02:29:14,560
spectrum particularly the extreme left

4114
02:29:19,910 --> 02:29:18,000
with the left hemisphere interesting but

4115
02:29:22,469 --> 02:29:19,920
but as i say i don't think that you can

4116
02:29:24,710 --> 02:29:22,479
make a a clean mapping no

4117
02:29:27,030 --> 02:29:24,720
right nietzsche to me was paradoxical

4118
02:29:28,710 --> 02:29:27,040
because he

4119
02:29:30,230 --> 02:29:28,720
repudiated rationalities and then that

4120
02:29:32,790 --> 02:29:30,240
to me puts him on the right

4121
02:29:34,309 --> 02:29:32,800
hemisphere as well as loved the passions

4122
02:29:36,230 --> 02:29:34,319
but then at the same time

4123
02:29:37,590 --> 02:29:36,240
had the will to power as his primal

4124
02:29:37,910 --> 02:29:37,600
motive at least toward the end of his

4125
02:29:40,950 --> 02:29:37,920
life

4126
02:29:42,469 --> 02:29:40,960
so then that's the left okay daigo pinto

4127
02:29:44,550 --> 02:29:42,479
can i just say something yes sure

4128
02:29:47,190 --> 02:29:44,560
quickly about that yeah

4129
02:29:49,110 --> 02:29:47,200
um i do want to get away from the idea

4130
02:29:51,510 --> 02:29:49,120
that somehow reason is

4131
02:29:53,110 --> 02:29:51,520
associated with the left hemisphere and

4132
02:29:54,790 --> 02:29:53,120
emotion with the right

4133
02:29:56,870 --> 02:29:54,800
reason is associated with both

4134
02:29:59,110 --> 02:29:56,880
hemispheres and so is emotion

4135
02:30:01,270 --> 02:29:59,120
they are both capable of being emotional

4136
02:30:03,830 --> 02:30:01,280
the left is actually more intemperate

4137
02:30:05,990 --> 02:30:03,840
less inhibited when it gets emotional

4138
02:30:06,950 --> 02:30:06,000
and the right hemisphere pl is plays a

4139
02:30:09,510 --> 02:30:06,960
very important

4140
02:30:11,510 --> 02:30:09,520
part in reason which is the coming

4141
02:30:13,750 --> 02:30:11,520
together of thoughtful

4142
02:30:15,750 --> 02:30:13,760
reflection on experience and even in

4143
02:30:17,510 --> 02:30:15,760
some kinds of logic it is actually

4144
02:30:18,070 --> 02:30:17,520
superior to the left so it's a very

4145
02:30:20,469 --> 02:30:18,080
complex

4146
02:30:21,750 --> 02:30:20,479
picture this is a good point for you to

4147
02:30:23,110 --> 02:30:21,760
delineate the difference between

4148
02:30:25,110 --> 02:30:23,120
rationality and reason

4149
02:30:26,630 --> 02:30:25,120
because i just use the word rationality

4150
02:30:27,190 --> 02:30:26,640
and i often conflate it with reason as

4151
02:30:28,870 --> 02:30:27,200
well

4152
02:30:32,710 --> 02:30:28,880
but in your book you do give i think you

4153
02:30:35,910 --> 02:30:32,720
cite the newest for reason

4154
02:30:38,389 --> 02:30:35,920
well i it struck me

4155
02:30:38,950 --> 02:30:38,399
that in most languages rather as we

4156
02:30:41,830 --> 02:30:38,960
don't

4157
02:30:43,590 --> 02:30:41,840
differentiate between this and canon we

4158
02:30:46,950 --> 02:30:43,600
just have one word to know

4159
02:30:48,150 --> 02:30:46,960
we also don't like many other languages

4160
02:30:52,070 --> 02:30:48,160
have a different term

4161
02:30:56,389 --> 02:30:52,080
for a sort of isolated abstracted

4162
02:30:58,550 --> 02:30:56,399
form formulation of rational processes

4163
02:31:00,870 --> 02:30:58,560
in the sense that a computer could be

4164
02:31:03,670 --> 02:31:00,880
programmed to carry them out

4165
02:31:04,950 --> 02:31:03,680
and reason which is often in conflict

4166
02:31:07,670 --> 02:31:04,960
with that

4167
02:31:08,389 --> 02:31:07,680
being reasonable means taking into

4168
02:31:14,469 --> 02:31:08,399
account

4169
02:31:16,070 --> 02:31:14,479
what one knows wisely from experience

4170
02:31:17,910 --> 02:31:16,080
and from living

4171
02:31:22,389 --> 02:31:17,920
and in german there's a distinction

4172
02:31:28,070 --> 02:31:25,510
rather abstract theoretical reason and

4173
02:31:30,630 --> 02:31:28,080
fenunzt which is a kind of quality that

4174
02:31:33,110 --> 02:31:30,640
you get from being wise and living which

4175
02:31:35,190 --> 02:31:33,120
means you're able to reason but do so as

4176
02:31:37,110 --> 02:31:35,200
a wise judge in a court would do

4177
02:31:39,510 --> 02:31:37,120
i mean a judge in a court shouldn't

4178
02:31:41,590 --> 02:31:39,520
really be just applying rules in a

4179
02:31:44,150 --> 02:31:41,600
computer-like way but should be thinking

4180
02:31:45,190 --> 02:31:44,160
contextually and that is what we used to

4181
02:31:47,190 --> 02:31:45,200
mean

4182
02:31:49,750 --> 02:31:47,200
by reason and that's what we used to

4183
02:31:51,670 --> 02:31:49,760
think was the flower of education that

4184
02:31:53,190 --> 02:31:51,680
the reason for educating people

4185
02:31:55,110 --> 02:31:53,200
was they could think in this very

4186
02:31:57,910 --> 02:31:55,120
balanced flexible way

4187
02:32:00,150 --> 02:31:57,920
taking many sides of things into account

4188
02:32:01,830 --> 02:32:00,160
but in our world today where everything

4189
02:32:02,630 --> 02:32:01,840
is very much skewed towards the left

4190
02:32:04,389 --> 02:32:02,640
hemisphere

4191
02:32:05,790 --> 02:32:04,399
we tend to think of reason as like a

4192
02:32:08,710 --> 02:32:05,800
kind of rote

4193
02:32:09,349 --> 02:32:08,720
rationality and i think that's a huge

4194
02:32:12,790 --> 02:32:09,359
loss

4195
02:32:13,990 --> 02:32:12,800
so yeah you mentioned the judge and that

4196
02:32:15,830 --> 02:32:14,000
reminds me i had a

4197
02:32:17,910 --> 02:32:15,840
speculative question or speculative

4198
02:32:19,830 --> 02:32:17,920
thought about jesus who had an emphasis

4199
02:32:20,710 --> 02:32:19,840
on the spirit of the text versus the

4200
02:32:22,309 --> 02:32:20,720
text

4201
02:32:24,389 --> 02:32:22,319
and one is in keeping with god and the

4202
02:32:25,910 --> 02:32:24,399
other is pharisaical it's a literal

4203
02:32:27,750 --> 02:32:25,920
interpretation

4204
02:32:29,590 --> 02:32:27,760
and jesus said you keep with god you

4205
02:32:30,309 --> 02:32:29,600
take the spirit and that to me was more

4206
02:32:31,670 --> 02:32:30,319
right-brained

4207
02:32:33,349 --> 02:32:31,680
and then i wondered does that mean

4208
02:32:36,710 --> 02:32:33,359
there's a theological argument for the

4209
02:32:40,550 --> 02:32:36,720
primacy of the right hemisphere

4210
02:32:43,670 --> 02:32:40,560
well there is actually and i make it um

4211
02:32:44,150 --> 02:32:43,680
in the matter with things but it's it's

4212
02:32:46,950 --> 02:32:44,160
a long

4213
02:32:48,790 --> 02:32:46,960
argument and it's a it needs to reflect

4214
02:32:52,309 --> 02:32:48,800
on many many many things

4215
02:32:54,150 --> 02:32:52,319
but i can't wait to read that book man

4216
02:32:56,309 --> 02:32:54,160
but what i would just say is there's an

4217
02:32:59,349 --> 02:32:56,319
interesting you know how

4218
02:33:00,550 --> 02:32:59,359
um my vision is that the left hemisphere

4219
02:33:02,630 --> 02:33:00,560
is either or

4220
02:33:03,750 --> 02:33:02,640
but the right hemisphere is sort of both

4221
02:33:05,510 --> 02:33:03,760
and

4222
02:33:07,110 --> 02:33:05,520
well the left hemisphere tends to be

4223
02:33:09,750 --> 02:33:07,120
very given to the letter

4224
02:33:11,830 --> 02:33:09,760
of the law as you hinted but the right

4225
02:33:13,670 --> 02:33:11,840
hemisphere is able to see that sometimes

4226
02:33:16,309 --> 02:33:13,680
the letter of the law

4227
02:33:17,990 --> 02:33:16,319
needs to be respected as well as the

4228
02:33:19,990 --> 02:33:18,000
kind of spirit of the law

4229
02:33:22,309 --> 02:33:20,000
because the spirit of the law is

4230
02:33:25,349 --> 02:33:22,319
generally what one wants to find not

4231
02:33:28,710 --> 02:33:25,359
the letter of it but if a person

4232
02:33:31,510 --> 02:33:28,720
has relied on the letter of the law

4233
02:33:33,670 --> 02:33:31,520
because that's what it says then they

4234
02:33:36,150 --> 02:33:33,680
ought to be given some protection

4235
02:33:37,190 --> 02:33:36,160
under law because they did abide by what

4236
02:33:39,990 --> 02:33:37,200
the letter of the law

4237
02:33:40,550 --> 02:33:40,000
said they might find themselves still

4238
02:33:42,790 --> 02:33:40,560
open

4239
02:33:44,309 --> 02:33:42,800
to the criticism that they didn't

4240
02:33:46,710 --> 02:33:44,319
understand the spirit of it

4241
02:33:48,469 --> 02:33:46,720
but i think that a wise judge would take

4242
02:33:50,389 --> 02:33:48,479
both into account and it's not

4243
02:33:52,550 --> 02:33:50,399
necessarily one way or the other that

4244
02:33:54,870 --> 02:33:52,560
they would i think they'd depend

4245
02:33:56,790 --> 02:33:54,880
their judgment would depend on the

4246
02:33:57,270 --> 02:33:56,800
circumstances and the person and the

4247
02:34:01,030 --> 02:33:57,280
case

4248
02:34:04,150 --> 02:34:03,030
i know i want to get to daigo's question

4249
02:34:06,550 --> 02:34:04,160
but you just said

4250
02:34:07,190 --> 02:34:06,560
i i please i have to interject with one

4251
02:34:08,950 --> 02:34:07,200
thought

4252
02:34:10,389 --> 02:34:08,960
pascal in your book you mentioned that

4253
02:34:12,790 --> 02:34:10,399
he had

4254
02:34:14,550 --> 02:34:12,800
a quotation about the whole point of

4255
02:34:15,590 --> 02:34:14,560
reason i believe it was reason not

4256
02:34:17,990 --> 02:34:15,600
rationality but

4257
02:34:19,270 --> 02:34:18,000
let's imagine it's reason that the whole

4258
02:34:20,469 --> 02:34:19,280
point of reason is to realize that

4259
02:34:22,150 --> 02:34:20,479
there's an infinitude of

4260
02:34:23,510 --> 02:34:22,160
more important aspects to life than

4261
02:34:26,389 --> 02:34:23,520
reason

4262
02:34:28,389 --> 02:34:26,399
and then i was wondering well what does

4263
02:34:31,830 --> 02:34:28,399
one say to the

4264
02:34:33,750 --> 02:34:31,840
retort that when giving and

4265
02:34:35,030 --> 02:34:33,760
when giving a reason to not use reason

4266
02:34:37,190 --> 02:34:35,040
you're still appealing to

4267
02:34:40,389 --> 02:34:37,200
reason so it's somewhat self-defeating

4268
02:34:44,630 --> 02:34:42,630
um i didn't quite catch the meaning of

4269
02:34:46,150 --> 02:34:44,640
your last okay

4270
02:34:47,510 --> 02:34:46,160
let's say you're giving let's say you're

4271
02:34:48,710 --> 02:34:47,520
explaining to someone here's why you

4272
02:34:51,429 --> 02:34:48,720
shouldn't use reason

4273
02:34:52,630 --> 02:34:51,439
alone or if it's rationality alone but

4274
02:34:55,830 --> 02:34:52,640
either way you're giving me

4275
02:34:58,870 --> 02:34:55,840
an argument and giving a reason to well

4276
02:35:00,870 --> 02:34:58,880
there are different levels of reason and

4277
02:35:02,550 --> 02:35:00,880
there's a kind of meta level of reason

4278
02:35:05,030 --> 02:35:02,560
and i think the meta level

4279
02:35:06,389 --> 02:35:05,040
the overarching view that takes in both

4280
02:35:09,190 --> 02:35:06,399
is usually the one i

4281
02:35:10,870 --> 02:35:09,200
would say is best associated more likely

4282
02:35:14,070 --> 02:35:10,880
to be associated with the

4283
02:35:15,830 --> 02:35:14,080
working of the right hemisphere and so

4284
02:35:17,110 --> 02:35:15,840
as i say the right hemisphere is no

4285
02:35:21,190 --> 02:35:17,120
stranger to reason

4286
02:35:22,950 --> 02:35:21,200
absolutely not um and

4287
02:35:24,469 --> 02:35:22,960
it would be a big mistake to say that it

4288
02:35:26,309 --> 02:35:24,479
in any way rejected it

4289
02:35:28,389 --> 02:35:26,319
but it's more likely to see the limits

4290
02:35:30,710 --> 02:35:28,399
of it because it's

4291
02:35:32,230 --> 02:35:30,720
it's able to stand outside of its own

4292
02:35:33,429 --> 02:35:32,240
viewpoint and see there are things that

4293
02:35:34,870 --> 02:35:33,439
it doesn't know which the left

4294
02:35:37,349 --> 02:35:34,880
hemisphere is very

4295
02:35:39,349 --> 02:35:37,359
bad at doing so it thinks i've got this

4296
02:35:40,710 --> 02:35:39,359
schema which will solve all my problems

4297
02:35:42,790 --> 02:35:40,720
i run them through

4298
02:35:45,270 --> 02:35:42,800
this mental computer and the solution

4299
02:35:46,870 --> 02:35:45,280
comes out which is the right answer

4300
02:35:48,550 --> 02:35:46,880
and the right chemists can say no there

4301
02:35:49,910 --> 02:35:48,560
could be many right answers

4302
02:35:52,309 --> 02:35:49,920
they're not you know they're not

4303
02:35:54,070 --> 02:35:52,319
necessarily compatible with one another

4304
02:35:55,910 --> 02:35:54,080
but they might apply in different

4305
02:35:57,349 --> 02:35:55,920
circumstances at different times with

4306
02:36:00,950 --> 02:35:57,359
different people

4307
02:36:02,710 --> 02:36:00,960
so to see a more nuanced and

4308
02:36:04,870 --> 02:36:02,720
more complex picture i think the right

4309
02:36:06,469 --> 02:36:04,880
hemisphere is the one that would be

4310
02:36:08,150 --> 02:36:06,479
using elements of reason

4311
02:36:10,550 --> 02:36:08,160
and there's nothing wrong with reason in

4312
02:36:12,710 --> 02:36:10,560
itself to show the limits of reason this

4313
02:36:14,469 --> 02:36:12,720
is really what pascal was saying

4314
02:36:16,150 --> 02:36:14,479
and you've just demonstrated that that

4315
02:36:17,990 --> 02:36:16,160
is that is okay

4316
02:36:19,990 --> 02:36:18,000
he made a distinction between what he

4317
02:36:23,349 --> 02:36:20,000
called geometry

4318
02:36:25,990 --> 02:36:23,359
geometers and espirifa

4319
02:36:26,630 --> 02:36:26,000
fine spirits and he says the fine

4320
02:36:29,830 --> 02:36:26,640
spirits

4321
02:36:33,429 --> 02:36:29,840
by the word fine he means subtle so

4322
02:36:35,429 --> 02:36:33,439
the subtle spirit is different from the

4323
02:36:37,429 --> 02:36:35,439
slightly bull in the china shop black

4324
02:36:40,790 --> 02:36:37,439
and white hard and fast

4325
02:36:43,590 --> 02:36:40,800
inflexible geometric spirit in which

4326
02:36:44,150 --> 02:36:43,600
he's saying you know you you you turn

4327
02:36:46,150 --> 02:36:44,160
away

4328
02:36:48,630 --> 02:36:46,160
you do a diagram and you've you've got

4329
02:36:52,070 --> 02:36:48,640
the answer whereas the

4330
02:36:54,389 --> 02:36:52,080
the esp he says can see

4331
02:36:56,469 --> 02:36:54,399
things understand things that can hardly

4332
02:36:57,190 --> 02:36:56,479
be put into words but are very very

4333
02:36:59,030 --> 02:36:57,200
important

4334
02:37:00,469 --> 02:36:59,040
now coming from a mathematician that is

4335
02:37:01,270 --> 02:37:00,479
a very imp and a very great

4336
02:37:04,870 --> 02:37:01,280
mathematician

4337
02:37:06,870 --> 02:37:04,880
that's a very important thing to hear

4338
02:37:08,469 --> 02:37:06,880
is this related to at one point in the

4339
02:37:11,030 --> 02:37:08,479
book you referenced that we need to

4340
02:37:12,630 --> 02:37:11,040
transcend utility and i always wondered

4341
02:37:13,990 --> 02:37:12,640
well tongue-in-cheek what's the use of

4342
02:37:16,710 --> 02:37:14,000
that

4343
02:37:18,389 --> 02:37:16,720
but also how does one transcend you is

4344
02:37:19,990 --> 02:37:18,399
this related to or is it not related to

4345
02:37:20,790 --> 02:37:20,000
it or is it all related because at some

4346
02:37:23,429 --> 02:37:20,800
point

4347
02:37:24,790 --> 02:37:23,439
everything's related no no it is it is

4348
02:37:28,230 --> 02:37:24,800
uh related

4349
02:37:29,830 --> 02:37:28,240
kurt but in the

4350
02:37:31,830 --> 02:37:29,840
i don't know whether you've got to a

4351
02:37:34,309 --> 02:37:31,840
chapter where i talk about shayla's

4352
02:37:38,070 --> 02:37:34,319
pyramid of values

4353
02:37:40,790 --> 02:37:38,080
shayla was a contemporary of

4354
02:37:42,070 --> 02:37:40,800
heidegger's but died much younger whom

4355
02:37:43,910 --> 02:37:42,080
heidegger called the greatest

4356
02:37:47,510 --> 02:37:43,920
philosopher in europe of his age

4357
02:37:48,630 --> 02:37:47,520
and he he focused on values more than

4358
02:37:50,790 --> 02:37:48,640
heidegger

4359
02:37:52,150 --> 02:37:50,800
and he had a hierarchy of values which

4360
02:37:53,750 --> 02:37:52,160
at the bottom is

4361
02:37:55,830 --> 02:37:53,760
things that are merely useful or

4362
02:37:56,389 --> 02:37:55,840
pleasurable the sort of things that

4363
02:37:59,110 --> 02:37:56,399
actually

4364
02:38:01,110 --> 02:37:59,120
any animal would would go for and then

4365
02:38:01,910 --> 02:38:01,120
there are the higher values that

4366
02:38:04,550 --> 02:38:01,920
transcend

4367
02:38:07,110 --> 02:38:04,560
those of pure utility and i think those

4368
02:38:10,309 --> 02:38:07,120
are the very important values that

4369
02:38:13,270 --> 02:38:10,319
render us moral beings and

4370
02:38:14,230 --> 02:38:13,280
give our lives meaning and that just to

4371
02:38:17,349 --> 02:38:14,240
be following

4372
02:38:19,510 --> 02:38:17,359
utility and pleasure is self-defeating

4373
02:38:20,710 --> 02:38:19,520
in fact by doing it very much more than

4374
02:38:23,190 --> 02:38:20,720
any previous

4375
02:38:25,349 --> 02:38:23,200
civilization has ever done we are

4376
02:38:27,110 --> 02:38:25,359
endangering our very existence as a

4377
02:38:28,870 --> 02:38:27,120
civilization

4378
02:38:30,710 --> 02:38:28,880
we're just grabbing things as they're

4379
02:38:32,469 --> 02:38:30,720
useful taking

4380
02:38:33,750 --> 02:38:32,479
courses of action because they're easy

4381
02:38:36,550 --> 02:38:33,760
and pleasurable

4382
02:38:37,270 --> 02:38:36,560
whereas when a civilization is a at its

4383
02:38:40,150 --> 02:38:37,280
height

4384
02:38:41,030 --> 02:38:40,160
it inculcates a spirit of self-denial to

4385
02:38:44,150 --> 02:38:41,040
a point

4386
02:38:45,190 --> 02:38:44,160
of you know a certain degree of bravery

4387
02:38:49,510 --> 02:38:45,200
of courage

4388
02:38:53,510 --> 02:38:49,520
of humility of

4389
02:38:54,710 --> 02:38:53,520
you know moral consideration of the

4390
02:38:56,469 --> 02:38:54,720
value of others

4391
02:38:59,190 --> 02:38:56,479
and that this is not the way that we now

4392
02:39:02,710 --> 02:39:00,790
i'm assuming then when you use the term

4393
02:39:05,030 --> 02:39:02,720
utility you mean in a short term

4394
02:39:05,830 --> 02:39:05,040
or short-sighted or self-centered manner

4395
02:39:08,550 --> 02:39:05,840
because

4396
02:39:10,550 --> 02:39:08,560
yes we could always say that we could

4397
02:39:11,190 --> 02:39:10,560
always reposition utility to be utility

4398
02:39:13,110 --> 02:39:11,200
for god

4399
02:39:14,550 --> 02:39:13,120
so that if we're acting in accordance

4400
02:39:14,790 --> 02:39:14,560
with our morals then that's useful for

4401
02:39:20,710 --> 02:39:14,800
the

4402
02:39:23,990 --> 02:39:20,720
terribly debased way of thinking about

4403
02:39:25,910 --> 02:39:24,000
um one's attitude to god it's rather

4404
02:39:27,670 --> 02:39:25,920
like the old argument that if you

4405
02:39:28,469 --> 02:39:27,680
believe that you will go to heaven if

4406
02:39:30,230 --> 02:39:28,479
you're good

4407
02:39:31,750 --> 02:39:30,240
then you're just really basically

4408
02:39:35,590 --> 02:39:31,760
pursuing a good

4409
02:39:38,710 --> 02:39:35,600
for yourself but that is really to

4410
02:39:39,910 --> 02:39:38,720
completely stand on its head i'm not

4411
02:39:42,469 --> 02:39:39,920
saying there aren't people who can be

4412
02:39:45,270 --> 02:39:42,479
motivated wrongly in this way i'm sure

4413
02:39:47,030 --> 02:39:45,280
there are and were but i'm really saying

4414
02:39:49,429 --> 02:39:47,040
that a true understanding

4415
02:39:50,389 --> 02:39:49,439
of morality excludes the idea that

4416
02:39:52,070 --> 02:39:50,399
you're moral

4417
02:39:54,790 --> 02:39:52,080
simply in order to get a benefit for

4418
02:39:56,150 --> 02:39:54,800
yourself i mean that's not morality that

4419
02:39:58,309 --> 02:39:56,160
is a kind of

4420
02:40:00,230 --> 02:39:58,319
yes a kind of selfishness and and it's

4421
02:40:00,950 --> 02:40:00,240
what we mean by hypocrisy you know where

4422
02:40:03,830 --> 02:40:00,960
people

4423
02:40:04,230 --> 02:40:03,840
say things and do things in order to

4424
02:40:06,740 --> 02:40:04,240
look

4425
02:40:08,630 --> 02:40:06,750
good and you know um

4426
02:40:10,469 --> 02:40:08,640
[Music]

4427
02:40:12,790 --> 02:40:10,479
sound like they're something that

4428
02:40:15,990 --> 02:40:12,800
they're not

4429
02:40:17,429 --> 02:40:16,000
okay daigo daigo pinto says his book the

4430
02:40:18,710 --> 02:40:17,439
master in his emissary is one of my

4431
02:40:20,150 --> 02:40:18,720
favorite books about the brain if you

4432
02:40:21,750 --> 02:40:20,160
could sneak in one of these questions

4433
02:40:23,990 --> 02:40:21,760
i'd be appreciated

4434
02:40:25,990 --> 02:40:24,000
he has five sorry he has four i'm going

4435
02:40:26,870 --> 02:40:26,000
to briefly outline them and then you can

4436
02:40:29,670 --> 02:40:26,880
answer one

4437
02:40:30,950 --> 02:40:29,680
or two if you like okay okay so he says

4438
02:40:32,630 --> 02:40:30,960
a section on the book that deals with

4439
02:40:34,070 --> 02:40:32,640
evolution of the solid self

4440
02:40:35,670 --> 02:40:34,080
though he uses in brackets that i'm

4441
02:40:37,269 --> 02:40:35,680
using these words

4442
02:40:38,389 --> 02:40:37,279
on my own here i'm not he didn't use

4443
02:40:40,309 --> 02:40:38,399
these words but there would be a

4444
02:40:42,309 --> 02:40:40,319
non-unified voice or several in an

4445
02:40:44,550 --> 02:40:42,319
individual which could be interpreted

4446
02:40:46,070 --> 02:40:44,560
as an outside other being and then you

4447
02:40:47,750 --> 02:40:46,080
make reference to moses and the ancient

4448
02:40:49,429 --> 02:40:47,760
greeks or

4449
02:40:51,110 --> 02:40:49,439
and so on as hearing god's voice as an

4450
02:40:52,790 --> 02:40:51,120
example he said

4451
02:40:54,230 --> 02:40:52,800
could he elaborate on this and point out

4452
02:40:56,389 --> 02:40:54,240
other sources on the topic

4453
02:40:57,750 --> 02:40:56,399
that's number one okay so save that

4454
02:40:59,750 --> 02:40:57,760
maybe you want to respond to that

4455
02:41:01,190 --> 02:40:59,760
he'll number two he mentions that

4456
02:41:02,150 --> 02:41:01,200
language and the music have a common

4457
02:41:03,429 --> 02:41:02,160
ancestry

4458
02:41:04,550 --> 02:41:03,439
and then give some evidence for the

4459
02:41:05,990 --> 02:41:04,560
claim and i'd like to hear if he's

4460
02:41:08,230 --> 02:41:06,000
learned anything new since the

4461
02:41:11,030 --> 02:41:08,240
publication of this book

4462
02:41:11,750 --> 02:41:11,040
there's that okay so that's the other

4463
02:41:13,830 --> 02:41:11,760
voices

4464
02:41:15,590 --> 02:41:13,840
language and music then what are his

4465
02:41:15,990 --> 02:41:15,600
thoughts if any on chomsky versus like

4466
02:41:18,630 --> 02:41:16,000
off

4467
02:41:20,150 --> 02:41:18,640
ideas about language that's number three

4468
02:41:21,910 --> 02:41:20,160
and then number four

4469
02:41:25,030 --> 02:41:21,920
what does he think about objective truth

4470
02:41:28,309 --> 02:41:27,349
pretty much does that wow okay okay so

4471
02:41:29,910 --> 02:41:28,319
again to briefly

4472
02:41:31,590 --> 02:41:29,920
briefly outline the god and the other

4473
02:41:32,870 --> 02:41:31,600
voices that are internal but yes

4474
02:41:34,389 --> 02:41:32,880
perceived as such

4475
02:41:37,590 --> 02:41:34,399
number two is language and music and

4476
02:41:40,070 --> 02:41:37,600
then chomsky and then objective truth

4477
02:41:41,750 --> 02:41:40,080
well i think the first two i have

4478
02:41:44,309 --> 02:41:41,760
covered either in what i've said or in

4479
02:41:46,710 --> 02:41:44,319
the book actually to some extent

4480
02:41:47,590 --> 02:41:46,720
but the last two are both very big

4481
02:41:52,630 --> 02:41:47,600
questions

4482
02:41:58,230 --> 02:41:56,830
i very much think like lakehoff and

4483
02:42:02,950 --> 02:41:58,240
johnson

4484
02:42:07,590 --> 02:42:02,960
about language and i find

4485
02:42:09,990 --> 02:42:07,600
chomsky's views i may simply not have

4486
02:42:11,750 --> 02:42:10,000
given them the credit that's due to them

4487
02:42:14,070 --> 02:42:11,760
of course

4488
02:42:15,750 --> 02:42:14,080
but i i find them less attractive

4489
02:42:18,630 --> 02:42:15,760
because they seem more

4490
02:42:19,030 --> 02:42:18,640
um schematic more programmatic more like

4491
02:42:22,790 --> 02:42:19,040
the

4492
02:42:25,670 --> 02:42:22,800
hardware that does

4493
02:42:26,790 --> 02:42:25,680
certain things whereas i'm a great

4494
02:42:29,030 --> 02:42:26,800
believer in

4495
02:42:31,030 --> 02:42:29,040
what one might call the power of

4496
02:42:32,150 --> 02:42:31,040
imitation in humans and i spend quite a

4497
02:42:34,550 --> 02:42:32,160
lot of time on

4498
02:42:35,510 --> 02:42:34,560
the fact that humans are particularly

4499
02:42:39,349 --> 02:42:35,520
good

4500
02:42:42,070 --> 02:42:39,359
at imitating um

4501
02:42:43,269 --> 02:42:42,080
not not just um copying but actually

4502
02:42:46,550 --> 02:42:43,279
imitating

4503
02:42:47,349 --> 02:42:46,560
and getting into the skin of another

4504
02:42:49,830 --> 02:42:47,359
creature

4505
02:42:50,710 --> 02:42:49,840
or another person and feeling something

4506
02:42:53,269 --> 02:42:50,720
about

4507
02:42:54,469 --> 02:42:53,279
how they are and why they are doing and

4508
02:42:57,190 --> 02:42:54,479
saying what they're doing

4509
02:42:58,309 --> 02:42:57,200
so i think language grows in this way as

4510
02:43:02,150 --> 02:42:58,319
i i've said

4511
02:43:05,030 --> 02:43:02,160
from a sort of a basic

4512
02:43:06,230 --> 02:43:05,040
sense that is embodied profoundly

4513
02:43:09,990 --> 02:43:06,240
embodied in

4514
02:43:10,790 --> 02:43:10,000
in movement in the voice in in music in

4515
02:43:14,389 --> 02:43:10,800
the voice

4516
02:43:17,830 --> 02:43:14,399
and the the business of breath

4517
02:43:18,790 --> 02:43:17,840
and that it is not really an abstract

4518
02:43:21,910 --> 02:43:18,800
code

4519
02:43:23,590 --> 02:43:21,920
uh it can become that

4520
02:43:25,830 --> 02:43:23,600
but it actually i don't know that

4521
02:43:27,670 --> 02:43:25,840
chomsky gives enough credit

4522
02:43:29,510 --> 02:43:27,680
to the way in which language is

4523
02:43:33,269 --> 02:43:29,520
constantly

4524
02:43:35,429 --> 02:43:33,279
um metaphorizing embodied experience and

4525
02:43:38,870 --> 02:43:35,439
takeoff and johnson very much do

4526
02:43:42,150 --> 02:43:38,880
show how every everything we say

4527
02:43:43,990 --> 02:43:42,160
has a reference that is understandable

4528
02:43:45,590 --> 02:43:44,000
in terms of the body and we can't get

4529
02:43:49,349 --> 02:43:45,600
deeper than that in a way

4530
02:43:52,070 --> 02:43:49,359
than our embodied experience um

4531
02:43:54,389 --> 02:43:52,080
it's where as wittgenstein said i hit

4532
02:43:56,150 --> 02:43:54,399
bedrock and my spade is turned you know

4533
02:43:59,830 --> 02:43:56,160
one can't dig down any further but it's

4534
02:44:01,590 --> 02:43:59,840
from there that that language comes

4535
02:44:03,269 --> 02:44:01,600
and i'd i've got time just to say a

4536
02:44:07,110 --> 02:44:03,279
little bit about the objective thing do

4537
02:44:11,590 --> 02:44:09,750
annoyingly i'm going to yeah i'm going

4538
02:44:14,150 --> 02:44:11,600
to say yes and no

4539
02:44:16,150 --> 02:44:14,160
um and i think we do yes we do to a

4540
02:44:19,910 --> 02:44:16,160
degree have access to it

4541
02:44:21,670 --> 02:44:19,920
um i i think very importantly that like

4542
02:44:24,070 --> 02:44:21,680
many other things

4543
02:44:25,670 --> 02:44:24,080
it's a journey as it were not an arrival

4544
02:44:26,710 --> 02:44:25,680
i mean it's not something we get and

4545
02:44:29,750 --> 02:44:26,720
then we have it

4546
02:44:33,030 --> 02:44:29,760
it's a cast of mind or disposition

4547
02:44:37,590 --> 02:44:33,040
for exploring life in the world

4548
02:44:40,309 --> 02:44:37,600
which enables one to have more solid

4549
02:44:41,349 --> 02:44:40,319
grounds for believing what one believes

4550
02:44:47,110 --> 02:44:41,359
so

4551
02:44:48,389 --> 02:44:47,120
which is a you know a devastatingly

4552
02:44:51,429 --> 02:44:48,399
destructive idea

4553
02:44:53,030 --> 02:44:51,439
and a very silly one that anything that

4554
02:44:54,790 --> 02:44:53,040
anybody says

4555
02:44:58,830 --> 02:44:54,800
is equally true because there's no

4556
02:45:03,110 --> 02:45:01,030
um yeah it's almost

4557
02:45:05,190 --> 02:45:03,120
beneath rebuttal but it's so obviously

4558
02:45:08,070 --> 02:45:05,200
wrong you know if i believe that

4559
02:45:10,550 --> 02:45:08,080
as as socal says that you that i can

4560
02:45:13,510 --> 02:45:10,560
walk out of the 22nd window of my

4561
02:45:14,150 --> 02:45:13,520
apartment sec 22nd floor window of my

4562
02:45:17,190 --> 02:45:14,160
apartment

4563
02:45:18,389 --> 02:45:17,200
and survive on landing i'm wrong um or

4564
02:45:22,070 --> 02:45:18,399
very likely to be so

4565
02:45:25,590 --> 02:45:22,080
um on the other hand

4566
02:45:30,150 --> 02:45:25,600
it's not at all true that there's a

4567
02:45:33,429 --> 02:45:30,160
a single truth that is the truth because

4568
02:45:35,510 --> 02:45:33,439
all truths are contextual

4569
02:45:37,429 --> 02:45:35,520
and that doesn't mean that every context

4570
02:45:39,910 --> 02:45:37,439
renders it completely different

4571
02:45:41,750 --> 02:45:39,920
there are trends and for me the

4572
02:45:43,510 --> 02:45:41,760
important thing is to see that the path

4573
02:45:46,550 --> 02:45:43,520
to truth is not a line

4574
02:45:48,309 --> 02:45:46,560
but a matter of circling or spiraling so

4575
02:45:49,750 --> 02:45:48,319
the important thing is not to say

4576
02:45:51,349 --> 02:45:49,760
i've taken this step now the next

4577
02:45:53,190 --> 02:45:51,359
logical step is this and at the end of

4578
02:45:54,550 --> 02:45:53,200
the road there will be truth

4579
02:45:56,550 --> 02:45:54,560
you might even say well i know i'll

4580
02:45:58,150 --> 02:45:56,560
never get there that's true but you know

4581
02:45:58,950 --> 02:45:58,160
at least i can see exactly where i'm

4582
02:46:00,790 --> 02:45:58,960
going

4583
02:46:03,670 --> 02:46:00,800
but i'm not sure that truth is of this

4584
02:46:05,670 --> 02:46:03,680
kind i think truth is of the kind

4585
02:46:08,710 --> 02:46:05,680
where you you look at something from as

4586
02:46:10,710 --> 02:46:08,720
many different viewpoints as you can

4587
02:46:12,710 --> 02:46:10,720
and when you hear somebody say something

4588
02:46:13,190 --> 02:46:12,720
else about it you don't just rule it out

4589
02:46:15,429 --> 02:46:13,200
and

4590
02:46:16,630 --> 02:46:15,439
you know dismiss it you think now let me

4591
02:46:19,110 --> 02:46:16,640
search for what's

4592
02:46:21,110 --> 02:46:19,120
the truth in that because there are

4593
02:46:23,110 --> 02:46:21,120
aspects of truth in it

4594
02:46:24,309 --> 02:46:23,120
and i sometimes quote done on this the

4595
02:46:27,110 --> 02:46:24,319
poet john dunn

4596
02:46:28,950 --> 02:46:27,120
17th century english poet one of our

4597
02:46:32,070 --> 02:46:28,960
great poets who who says

4598
02:46:34,389 --> 02:46:32,080
words the effect that truth is

4599
02:46:35,910 --> 02:46:34,399
like a castle that stands on a steep and

4600
02:46:38,469 --> 02:46:35,920
cragged hill

4601
02:46:39,590 --> 02:46:38,479
and who wants to arrive at it doesn't go

4602
02:46:41,990 --> 02:46:39,600
straight up

4603
02:46:44,230 --> 02:46:42,000
but has to circle round the hill to get

4604
02:46:46,710 --> 02:46:44,240
there and that image is a very useful

4605
02:46:49,110 --> 02:46:46,720
one to bear in mind in fact i return to

4606
02:46:50,710 --> 02:46:49,120
the image of the spiral path

4607
02:46:52,070 --> 02:46:50,720
in which it's not exactly a circle which

4608
02:46:52,950 --> 02:46:52,080
means that you just end up where you

4609
02:46:54,870 --> 02:46:52,960
were when you

4610
02:46:57,429 --> 02:46:54,880
when you when you when you get round the

4611
02:47:00,389 --> 02:46:57,439
circle but actually a spiral

4612
02:47:02,150 --> 02:47:00,399
whereby you were you you've come to

4613
02:47:03,670 --> 02:47:02,160
somewhere like where you were before but

4614
02:47:05,750 --> 02:47:03,680
the view is now different

4615
02:47:07,349 --> 02:47:05,760
a little bit like dias eliot's famous

4616
02:47:08,070 --> 02:47:07,359
thing about arriving where we started

4617
02:47:10,630 --> 02:47:08,080
from but

4618
02:47:13,269 --> 02:47:10,640
knowing it for the first time and and so

4619
02:47:15,990 --> 02:47:13,279
i think life is a series of these things

4620
02:47:17,830 --> 02:47:16,000
and the path of objective truth is to

4621
02:47:20,790 --> 02:47:17,840
commit yourself to this

4622
02:47:22,550 --> 02:47:20,800
process of spiraling around and learning

4623
02:47:24,630 --> 02:47:22,560
as much as you can about it and knowing

4624
02:47:26,790 --> 02:47:24,640
you'll never get the absolute truth

4625
02:47:28,710 --> 02:47:26,800
but you can get much much closer to

4626
02:47:32,710 --> 02:47:28,720
truth and that matters very much

4627
02:47:34,070 --> 02:47:32,720
so truth matters and it is not the case

4628
02:47:34,950 --> 02:47:34,080
that you know well i just see it

4629
02:47:37,349 --> 02:47:34,960
differently so

4630
02:47:38,469 --> 02:47:37,359
my truth's as good as yours your truth

4631
02:47:40,150 --> 02:47:38,479
may be as good as mine

4632
02:47:42,550 --> 02:47:40,160
it may be better than mine but it may

4633
02:47:44,950 --> 02:47:42,560
equally by the same token be worse

4634
02:47:46,150 --> 02:47:44,960
so you know there is meaning to this

4635
02:47:48,790 --> 02:47:46,160
idea

4636
02:47:49,349 --> 02:47:48,800
a very important meaning to it and i do

4637
02:47:50,950 --> 02:47:49,359
find

4638
02:47:52,550 --> 02:47:50,960
earphones very funny i don't know

4639
02:47:53,910 --> 02:47:52,560
something about my ears but they always

4640
02:47:57,269 --> 02:47:53,920
keep flopping out

4641
02:48:00,550 --> 02:47:57,279
um anyway there we are um

4642
02:48:04,309 --> 02:48:00,560
that's that thank you that's the sir

4643
02:48:06,150 --> 02:48:04,319
i appreciate it you should read

4644
02:48:08,870 --> 02:48:06,160
just as we go you should read this book

4645
02:48:10,710 --> 02:48:08,880
by douglas hofstetter your

4646
02:48:12,150 --> 02:48:10,720
your chapter on imitation reminded me of

4647
02:48:14,309 --> 02:48:12,160
it it's called surfaces and essences

4648
02:48:17,269 --> 02:48:14,319
it's about analogy

4649
02:48:17,990 --> 02:48:17,279
okay uh is that in the mind's eye or is

4650
02:48:21,110 --> 02:48:18,000
what is that

4651
02:48:23,110 --> 02:48:21,120
no no no it's it's all own book it's a

4652
02:48:24,950 --> 02:48:23,120
huge book just about how analogy is the

4653
02:48:28,150 --> 02:48:24,960
core of cognition

4654
02:48:29,590 --> 02:48:28,160
even the fact that when we imitate

4655
02:48:32,070 --> 02:48:29,600
he i don't believe he uses the word

4656
02:48:33,030 --> 02:48:32,080
memes but susan blackwell even points

4657
02:48:35,110 --> 02:48:33,040
this out that

4658
02:48:37,190 --> 02:48:35,120
blackmoore points it out that to imitate

4659
02:48:39,429 --> 02:48:37,200
is extremely complex

4660
02:48:40,550 --> 02:48:39,439
to copy is right but to imitate is

4661
02:48:43,510 --> 02:48:40,560
complex

4662
02:48:45,190 --> 02:48:43,520
you have to take the essence of it yes

4663
02:48:48,389 --> 02:48:45,200
no that's exactly right

4664
02:48:50,150 --> 02:48:48,399
and what's also nice about it is that

4665
02:48:51,750 --> 02:48:50,160
again the right hemisphere is better at

4666
02:48:52,950 --> 02:48:51,760
this business of getting into the skin

4667
02:48:55,349 --> 02:48:52,960
of somebody else and

4668
02:48:57,349 --> 02:48:55,359
understanding the complexity of it but

4669
02:48:59,510 --> 02:48:57,359
it is also

4670
02:49:01,190 --> 02:48:59,520
the one that thinks that understanding

4671
02:49:04,070 --> 02:49:01,200
is analogy

4672
02:49:06,070 --> 02:49:04,080
so that these when i talked about

4673
02:49:09,830 --> 02:49:06,080
mathematicians and scientists

4674
02:49:12,389 --> 02:49:09,840
having a sense of a form and

4675
02:49:14,790 --> 02:49:12,399
and then finding that through a

4676
02:49:18,150 --> 02:49:14,800
revelation or intuitional

4677
02:49:18,870 --> 02:49:18,160
insight they saw the solution to a

4678
02:49:22,070 --> 02:49:18,880
problem

4679
02:49:24,070 --> 02:49:22,080
that was by analogy not by going

4680
02:49:25,990 --> 02:49:24,080
well i'm nine tenths of the way there

4681
02:49:28,389 --> 02:49:26,000
down this path and if i just do a few

4682
02:49:30,389 --> 02:49:28,399
more pages of work i have reached it

4683
02:49:32,309 --> 02:49:30,399
nothing is an understanding in that way

4684
02:49:33,750 --> 02:49:32,319
we don't just gradually work our way

4685
02:49:36,790 --> 02:49:33,760
along a line

4686
02:49:39,750 --> 02:49:36,800
we we have to see and feel

4687
02:49:41,190 --> 02:49:39,760
analogies and this is how einstein

4688
02:49:43,190 --> 02:49:41,200
described his own

4689
02:49:44,950 --> 02:49:43,200
discoveries that he would play a piece

4690
02:49:46,230 --> 02:49:44,960
of music and he would ponder about it

4691
02:49:47,110 --> 02:49:46,240
then he'd get up from the piano and go

4692
02:49:49,429 --> 02:49:47,120
i've got it

4693
02:49:51,670 --> 02:49:49,439
and or at least his daughter i think

4694
02:49:53,910 --> 02:49:51,680
describes him in this way

4695
02:49:55,510 --> 02:49:53,920
so and he always said you know that i

4696
02:49:58,070 --> 02:49:55,520
don't think in words i think

4697
02:49:58,870 --> 02:49:58,080
in musical forms and muscular movements

4698
02:50:02,150 --> 02:49:58,880
well

4699
02:50:03,349 --> 02:50:02,160
how remarkable is that so anyway we

4700
02:50:06,389 --> 02:50:03,359
we've we've talked

4701
02:50:08,950 --> 02:50:06,399
an awful lot um

4702
02:50:10,710 --> 02:50:08,960
and have a drink get some rest well for

4703
02:50:13,830 --> 02:50:10,720
you i don't know what time it is

4704
02:50:15,429 --> 02:50:13,840
i got the chomsky itself it's a little

4705
02:50:17,269 --> 02:50:15,439
early for a drink for me but i'll get

4706
02:50:19,110 --> 02:50:17,279
onto it in due course and drink your

4707
02:50:20,870 --> 02:50:19,120
your very great health and i look

4708
02:50:22,389 --> 02:50:20,880
forward to talking again

4709
02:50:24,070 --> 02:50:22,399
perhaps in the year when you've had a

4710
02:50:25,429 --> 02:50:24,080
chance to take a look at the matter with

4711
02:50:27,910 --> 02:50:25,439
things yeah

4712
02:50:29,030 --> 02:50:27,920
thank you so much i keep wanting to call

4713
02:50:30,469 --> 02:50:29,040
you professor i was surprised that you

4714
02:50:34,150 --> 02:50:30,479
weren't a professor because

4715
02:50:37,030 --> 02:50:34,160
the the corpus of your of

4716
02:50:39,030 --> 02:50:37,040
of mastering its emissary is it's a huge

4717
02:50:42,950 --> 02:50:39,040
intellectual achievement

4718
02:50:46,309 --> 02:50:42,960
well i i'm a maverick and um

4719
02:50:50,389 --> 02:50:46,319
uh jung and freud were um doctors

4720
02:50:51,910 --> 02:50:50,399
uh i'm a doctor i like that real

4721
02:50:54,389 --> 02:50:51,920
my wife liked the advice that you said

4722
02:50:54,950 --> 02:50:54,399
about me taking some time off and having

4723
02:50:57,110 --> 02:50:54,960
a break

4724
02:50:58,309 --> 02:50:57,120
so we're likely going to do that after

4725
02:51:01,510 --> 02:50:58,319
the chomsky interview

4726
02:51:03,190 --> 02:51:01,520
okay have a great day very good i want

4727
02:51:04,309 --> 02:51:03,200
the audience to look up okay first of

4728
02:51:05,990 --> 02:51:04,319
all where can they find out more about

4729
02:51:10,030 --> 02:51:06,000
you

4730
02:51:12,309 --> 02:51:10,040
uh the best places to go is um

4731
02:51:13,190 --> 02:51:12,319
channelmcgilchrist.com uh which you can

4732
02:51:16,469 --> 02:51:13,200
just put in a

4733
02:51:21,429 --> 02:51:16,479
as an url or you can google my name it

4734
02:51:24,550 --> 02:51:23,990
the main book of my thinking is the one

4735
02:51:27,190 --> 02:51:24,560
that you

4736
02:51:28,870 --> 02:51:27,200
referred to but in the next few months

4737
02:51:31,190 --> 02:51:28,880
i'm publishing

4738
02:51:32,150 --> 02:51:31,200
a very large book which is my attempt to

4739
02:51:34,870 --> 02:51:32,160
explain why

4740
02:51:36,389 --> 02:51:34,880
the whole way we think about ourselves

4741
02:51:39,670 --> 02:51:36,399
nature

4742
02:51:41,510 --> 02:51:39,680
the cosmos and reality is mistaken and

4743
02:51:43,670 --> 02:51:41,520
it's based heavily on the hemisphere

4744
02:51:45,910 --> 02:51:43,680
hypothesis

4745
02:51:47,910 --> 02:51:45,920
and i think it shows a way in which we

4746
02:51:51,349 --> 02:51:47,920
could go forward in the world

4747
02:51:55,110 --> 02:51:51,359
and flourish and survive rather than

4748
02:51:57,429 --> 02:51:55,120
come to um a disastrous end

4749
02:51:58,630 --> 02:51:57,439
so there we are i'd love to talk to you

4750
02:52:00,469 --> 02:51:58,640
again one day but uh

4751
02:52:02,150 --> 02:52:00,479
right now i'm gonna go and have a drink

4752
02:52:03,990 --> 02:52:02,160
okay go ahead go have a drink

4753
02:52:06,070 --> 02:52:04,000
at some point i did want to ask you

4754
02:52:07,590 --> 02:52:06,080
about cognitive behavioral therapy for

4755
02:52:08,790 --> 02:52:07,600
what i was going through but what i am

4756
02:52:10,070 --> 02:52:08,800
going through like i want to know should

4757
02:52:11,990 --> 02:52:10,080
i just be out of nature more

4758
02:52:14,630 --> 02:52:12,000
should i listen to more music i

4759
02:52:16,550 --> 02:52:14,640
definitely gonna stop or try my best to

4760
02:52:20,150 --> 02:52:16,560
stop being so self-conscious

4761
02:52:21,990 --> 02:52:20,160
and and let's say left brain i think

4762
02:52:24,389 --> 02:52:22,000
i think being able to be mindful being

4763
02:52:26,309 --> 02:52:24,399
out in nature listening to music

4764
02:52:28,230 --> 02:52:26,319
slowing down and doing precisely what

4765
02:52:29,750 --> 02:52:28,240
your left hand is telling you mustn't do

4766
02:52:31,830 --> 02:52:29,760
which is waste time

4767
02:52:33,750 --> 02:52:31,840
would be a terribly good idea i mean i

4768
02:52:35,510 --> 02:52:33,760
think that's such a destructive idea

4769
02:52:36,790 --> 02:52:35,520
that time is a resource it's typical

4770
02:52:39,429 --> 02:52:36,800
left hemisphere

4771
02:52:40,630 --> 02:52:39,439
idea that time is money as jeremy

4772
02:52:44,150 --> 02:52:40,640
bentham a man with

4773
02:52:45,830 --> 02:52:44,160
no right hemisphere detectable um to the

4774
02:52:50,710 --> 02:52:45,840
human eye

4775
02:52:53,110 --> 02:52:50,720
sad and it's this idea that we husband

4776
02:52:54,950 --> 02:52:53,120
time as material and the more we do that

4777
02:52:56,870 --> 02:52:54,960
the less time we have the more hurried

4778
02:52:58,469 --> 02:52:56,880
we are the less we inhabit the world at

4779
02:53:01,110 --> 02:52:58,479
all and then we die

4780
02:53:02,150 --> 02:53:01,120
so i think it's a very good idea to slow

4781
02:53:05,830 --> 02:53:02,160
down

4782
02:53:06,790 --> 02:53:05,840
and to learn to listen and not to be too

4783
02:53:08,790 --> 02:53:06,800
active

4784
02:53:10,070 --> 02:53:08,800
i mean i don't always take my own advice

4785
02:53:11,670 --> 02:53:10,080
i have to say yeah

4786
02:53:13,750 --> 02:53:11,680
well you're i don't know how you were

4787
02:53:15,190 --> 02:53:13,760
able to do that i

4788
02:53:17,190 --> 02:53:15,200
i have no idea how you were able to come

4789
02:53:17,750 --> 02:53:17,200
up with that book it you know 14 years

4790
02:53:20,389 --> 02:53:17,760
sounds like

4791
02:53:21,990 --> 02:53:20,399
quite a long time but as i have done my

4792
02:53:23,590 --> 02:53:22,000
own research

4793
02:53:25,190 --> 02:53:23,600
i feel like in 14 years i would have

4794
02:53:27,590 --> 02:53:25,200
come up with 20

4795
02:53:29,750 --> 02:53:27,600
of what you came up with so that's a

4796
02:53:31,830 --> 02:53:29,760
tour de force man

4797
02:53:32,950 --> 02:53:31,840
well i sometimes think the mice came in

4798
02:53:36,150 --> 02:53:32,960
the night and

4799
02:53:38,790 --> 02:53:36,160
wrote it for me yeah

4800
02:53:39,349 --> 02:53:38,800
okay thank you so much thank you please

4801
02:53:41,990 --> 02:53:39,359
get some

4802
02:53:42,469 --> 02:53:42,000
rest have a drink i i feel like in many

4803
02:53:44,230 --> 02:53:42,479
ways

4804
02:53:46,630 --> 02:53:44,240
this podcast is killing me because i

4805
02:53:47,349 --> 02:53:46,640
planned so i have so many pages here i

4806
02:53:50,070 --> 02:53:47,359
go

4807
02:53:51,190 --> 02:53:50,080
through such lengths to for each guest

4808
02:53:53,750 --> 02:53:51,200
but we can

4809
02:53:54,790 --> 02:53:53,760
hey we can do this again if you don't

4810
02:53:57,269 --> 02:53:54,800
mind i would

4811
02:53:57,990 --> 02:53:57,279
i would love to i don't want to i you're

4812
02:54:00,309 --> 02:53:58,000
too kind

4813
02:54:02,230 --> 02:54:00,319
i truly work yeah no no look what about

4814
02:54:05,030 --> 02:54:02,240
we do it again in say a year's time my

4815
02:54:06,389 --> 02:54:05,040
book will have come out you can yes yeah

4816
02:54:08,469 --> 02:54:06,399
we'll have another go that would be

4817
02:54:10,150 --> 02:54:08,479
great yeah great great okay where are

4818
02:54:11,990 --> 02:54:10,160
you by the way are you in l.a or what

4819
02:54:15,190 --> 02:54:12,000
i'm in toronto

4820
02:54:17,590 --> 02:54:15,200
toronto ah yes that's right

4821
02:54:18,950 --> 02:54:17,600
because yes because you said i i

4822
02:54:20,710 --> 02:54:18,960
attended the

4823
02:54:24,230 --> 02:54:20,720
the first showing of the film which and

4824
02:54:29,349 --> 02:54:26,950
somebody had some sound engineer got a

4825
02:54:31,030 --> 02:54:29,359
very red face afterwards with it

4826
02:54:32,389 --> 02:54:31,040
yeah yeah that's right we could barely

4827
02:54:34,469 --> 02:54:32,399
hear you and i think

4828
02:54:35,940 --> 02:54:34,479
peterson had to talk to you over her

4829
02:54:37,830 --> 02:54:35,950
phone

4830
02:54:40,150 --> 02:54:37,840
[Laughter]

4831
02:54:42,550 --> 02:54:40,160
all right then love you too being your

4832
02:54:43,590 --> 02:54:42,560
guest thank you very much

4833
02:54:45,429 --> 02:54:43,600
again it was a pleasure it was a

4834
02:54:46,710 --> 02:54:45,439
pleasure thank you i honestly mean it

4835
02:54:47,269 --> 02:54:46,720
like your book is life changing at least

4836
02:54:49,990 --> 02:54:47,279
for me

4837
02:54:50,710 --> 02:54:50,000
and i think slowly it's going to dawn on

4838
02:54:52,150 --> 02:54:50,720
me or

4839
02:54:54,710 --> 02:54:52,160
the realizations that you've just

4840
02:54:56,389 --> 02:54:54,720
incepted or implanted thank you

4841
02:54:58,070 --> 02:54:56,399
thank you very much hopefully it's not

4842
02:55:01,110 --> 02:54:58,080
too destabilizing for me well

4843
02:55:01,349 --> 02:55:01,120
oh the very best have a great one thank

4844
02:55:03,510 --> 02:55:01,359
you

4845
02:55:05,190 --> 02:55:03,520
okay i'll try and be more embodied i'll

4846
02:55:06,710 --> 02:55:05,200
try my best because i don't i definitely

4847
02:55:08,790 --> 02:55:06,720
don't want to hear voices